Yeah agree on the squad. The balance doesn’t look right overall as it stands which is hugely frustrating. Smith has put this team together and needs to get a tune out of it. I think on paper it’s good enough (injuries permitting) to get top 4 but i have a suspicion we will fall well short

Kaeru - I was definitely on the side of understanding issues last year which made the whole season an almost impossible challenge. I don't think a lot of people understand how hard it was for Rohan to manage a squad through last season when he knew the squad was facing a major revamp in the off-season.

But we're near the bottom of the league in attacking sets, are struggling to score more than 2 tries a game, and play far too much of every game at the wrong end of the field. I'd say the issues are more fundamental than errors, its certainly not injuries either. With quite a different squad this list of issues is the same as last season.

On short kick-offs, I'd say that's just one example of something that distracts from the basics. Never mind the stats (which are highly debatable given that most teams only try them in dire circumstances near the end of a game, so there's a small and biased sample), it speaks of a mindset of hoping to get a cheap win of possession, rather than focusing on kicking deep and building pressure through defensive hard work. It also ignores issues such as the other team making a mistake direct from the kick off or in an early tackle - in any event near their own end. Short drop outs are different - there are valid reasons for trying them, which is why they've almost become standard.

I just don't understand why there's so much reluctance to acknowledge the fact that whether its passive defence or any other reason, we are losing the field position battle far too often to give us much of a chance. Playing at the wrong end of the field just invites defeat.

Games can't be won without the ball and field position. Regardless of how much possession we have, if we're playing most of the game in our own 30 we aren't going to score enough to win enough.

I think we’re disagreeing on the reasons why we are in our own red zone too much of the time rather than how bad it is to be there.

I don’t think our defence is as “passive” as is being made out, on the whole. I think it’s become a bandwagon. I think lots of fans have had enough of RS.

I’m not saying he will or should be coach into 2025 yet; but personally my mind isn’t made up on him. We changed McDemrott. We changed Furner. We changed Agar. Where has it got us? We just change the coach every year or two until magical things happen?

I think the squad is a hell of a lot closer to where it needs to be now than when RS took over. I can see us competing with the big boys IF (big if) we can find and attract 2-3 real high quality additions. I coukdn’t say that at any time in the last 7 years.

I agree with you Jim, but I think it's going to take the emergence of more young talent from within the club (not just signings) if we're really going to turn things around.

Too early to write off this season though.

Yep, you need at least a handful of your stars to be from your academy, preferably in the pivot positions, as they tend to cost less on the cap. I'm not really sure we can afford to bring in more stars from outside the club, unless players leave

Didn't sky say we were 300k under budget ?.

Either way, end of this season we should have the cap space from Olpherts,Fusitua and Donaldson plus any left from Myler and cap above if true.
Maybe even money from Martin if he wants to move.

More than enough for the three players we need ( of high quality, no projects) to balance the squad

Quote ="Emagdnim13"Didn't sky say we were 300k under budget ?. Either way, end of this season we should have the cap space from Olpherts,Fusitua and Donaldson plus any left from Myler and cap above if true. Maybe even money from Martin if he wants to move. More than enough for the three players we need ( of high quality, no projects) to balance the squad'" We have the joint 4th highest wage bill according to this graphic from sky. We're spending the same has Saints and Huddersfield, but less than Warrington, Catalans, and Wigan. https://twitter.com/johnnyddavidson/sta ... 5X3cw&s=19

Quote ="Emagdnim13"Didn't sky say we were 300k under budget ?. Either way, end of this season we should have the cap space from Olpherts,Fusitua and Donaldson plus any left from Myler and cap above if true. Maybe even money from Martin if he wants to move. More than enough for the three players we need ( of high quality, no projects) to balance the squad'" We have the joint 4th highest wage bill according to this graphic from sky. We're spending the same has Saints and Huddersfield, but less than Warrington, Catalans, and Wigan. https://twitter.com/johnnyddavidson/sta ... 5X3cw&s=19

Yes in theory but a lot then hangs on how good those ex academy lads actually are..

I don’t know if Rohan Smith has encouraged a “passive” style of defence and if he has actually coached systems to that effect. If he has he should be on his bike right now because it’s the daftest thing I’ve ever heard in my life and it’s clearly not working. I’m thinking we look passive because the players aren’t physically strong enough and lack endurance therefore they end up on the back foot getting steamrollered towards their own line. It’s the same when we are trying to get off our own line, like little boys in year 3 trying to compete and get past the bigger lads in year 5. I think if anything is being coached to be “passive” it’s our attacking strategy in the opponents half, and that’s what annoys me about Rohan Smith. The buck stops with him on that one, and that’s what annoys a lot of fans.

Quote ="Jack Burton"We have the joint 4th highest wage bill according to this graphic from sky. We're spending the same has Saints and Huddersfield, but less than Warrington, Catalans, and Wigan. https://twitter.com/johnnyddavidson/sta ... 5X3cw&s=19'" We might have to bite the bullet and spend the most for a couple of years... I'm not for buying success, but there is still this little hump of quality we're struggling to get over. There is some talent in the youth for sure, but I'm not sure I see another Danny Mags or Adrian Morley in there currently.

Quote ="Jack Burton"We have the joint 4th highest wage bill according to this graphic from sky. We're spending the same has Saints and Huddersfield, but less than Warrington, Catalans, and Wigan. https://twitter.com/johnnyddavidson/sta ... 5X3cw&s=19'" We might have to bite the bullet and spend the most for a couple of years... I'm not for buying success, but there is still this little hump of quality we're struggling to get over. There is some talent in the youth for sure, but I'm not sure I see another Danny Mags or Adrian Morley in there currently.

Our line speed has been p* poor at times, I don't like that don't get me wrong. But it hasn't been all the time - our D looks worse IMO primarily because errors and penalties keep putting us in rubbish positions.

We have had spells in attack where we end sets better than last year with a nice attacking kick, but I thought against Wire we weren't as good - aside from the nice kicks from Croft to Roberts and Frawley for Newman.

The line speed noticeably improves in the second half.
Which makes it feel like a deliberate tactic.
Soak up the pressure in the first half and then apply pressure in the second when there are tired legs.

Will occasionally work against poorer teams or teams not in form (see Cas, Leigh, Cats games).
Won't work against better teams or teams bang in form (see Saints and Wire games).

Not a sustainable strategy for me.
I'm all for trying new things, but if things don't work you have to adapt and be prepared to change.
Not sure with RS on that front.

it's 100% a tactic despite what some claim. an absolutley stupid one!

Well, Warrington have just put a similar score on against Saints. Are Saints just as bad as us now?

When they started with the short kick-offs I did start to wonder

Someone on here when we lost said we got battered by a team who won't even make the top six. Warrington look like the real deal this year if they carry this form through to the end of the year.

They’ve a big pack, some very good halves and a good coach. Look good this season.

They do look a decent side. But IMO its serious whataboutery to suggest that makes our performance against them somehow better. We need to be getting wins against some of the the best teams, particularly at home.

So far we look like one of the sides that will end up somewhere between 5th and 8th, and that's quite a competitive set of teams we're in amongst as well. Even Leigh, who've dropped more games than us and are 9th, have an almost identical for and against points record. We're a long, long way from being one of the 'big' teams in the comp this year.

just shows how important it is to get the right coach in, not just a cheap.or project option.

Is Burgess not a project option? He has less experience than Smith.

but doing a million times better....

I think its far too early to consider whether Burgess will be a success or failure.

Warrington have an excellent squad, with an owner with lots of resources. It's a perfect job for a rookie coach. Especially someone like SB who's more of a motivator, than a technician

True and after a flakey start they seem to be building towards some good performances, we on the other hand are making the same errors week after week and look to be treading water.

Who knows what we will turn in this week, this could be the game where we click and go on to a great performance / run but for me we a far, far too inconsistent team week to week and tbf in most games too.

But they've always splashed the cash Jack.
And it hasn't worked out.
Didn't it start well for both Price and Powell and then both fell off a cliff?
As some others have said, it's way too early to judge Burgess yet.
They're on the crest of a wave just now.
Remember Smith got us to the GF and all other teams were looking over in envy as though we had found the real deal.
No-one would take him off us now.