pathetic one-eyed leeds rhinos biased rubbish
didnt they see his terrible 'per carry' stats?
etc etc

I think if one of the centres is missing then I'd like to see Briscoe moved there with Handley coming in on the wing. Keinhorst did an alright job for Way on loan when he eventually got injury-free but I think a club that's going to find itself in that middle 8 is about his level. Either way as long as we've seen the last of the Ward/Sutcliffe selection at centre.

Can't really say I see Moon as a winger, especially when ours are expected to run it hard back at the start of sets to give our forwards a breather. And that for me is the problem with Moon, he's not a natural centre IMO, wouldn't be a natural winger and whilst he has some skills that could suit a halfback position, could he lead a team around a pitch? Have the kicking game etc? He's a good RL player yet he has no clear cut position where he looks fully suited to.

With the same ponderous halfbacks in 2013 Watkins went on to score 8 tries in 6 games AS A WINGER with Ablett as his centre......so it can be done. That spell of games was probably Watkins best run of form over several games in the few seasons and it wasn't as a centre.

In fact during McDermott's spell as coach, Watkins has played wing 12 times and scored 15 tries there.

I'm not sure where this obsession with fast halfbacks comes from. Speed comes from using the ball, unless you have real speed like Johnson. If speed were the best measure Cooper Cronk wouldn't even be playing first grade nowadays.

I agree. Many seem to forget that for a chunk of the 2nd half of the 2013 season we had Burrow and Sutcliffe starting in the halves for us and it wasn't like things were massively different.

i agree that half backs do not need to be lightning fast to be successful, but as i eluded to earlier we do lack a half back that can constantly attack and break the defensive line, that is why my choice at stand off would have been travis burns who has been very successful in this role and whilst playing in a mediocre hull kr side despite not being the quickest half back around.

time will tell how good he will be in this role in a top side like saints, but ill bet that their outside backs get a lot more running chances and against a broken first line of defense than our outside backs do this season

i would be happy to see sutty given the chance to play this type of role for us this season but i can't see it happening

You don't need to be lightning fast, but you need to be a threat to the line, and put defenders in two minds as to what you are going to do. At the moment it feels like defenders can ignore McGuire or SInfield running at the lines partly because its unlikely, and partly because when they do you can react to it. McGuire is a much better half back than he was 10 years ago, but I'm not sure that makes him more effective

Speed creates options - it gets the defence in two minds if you look at the two top half backs in the NRL Johnson and Thurston both have an ability to break the line or at least commit a defender. Neither of our half backs have that ability.

Cronk is a kicking machine who fits perfectly with Bellamy's ultra-controlling game plan. It is no surprise that without a creative half back they are now a team in decline.

That is two years ago - time has moved teams have strengthen and our players have aged - even his great fans have to agree Sinfield had a terrible 2014. Maybe the winter off will spark him back into action and his form of 2013 will return.

Agree Watkins is in danger of not fulfilling his potential - the coaches need to work on him to move him to the next level.

IMO there aren’t really any halfbacks out there that have the combination of pace, skill, playmaking ability, good kicking out of the hand and consistency apart from Johnathan Thurston. He has the lot and stands out above anyone else. Cronk is more of a dependable type who can move a side around a field without doing the flashy stuff very often. He is utterly dependable though.

Shaun Johnson has it all apart from the consistency.

Over here there’s nobody that comes close. I think Leeds have lots of options at halfback which puts them in a stronger position than most other SL teams. A lack of pace isn’t a great handicap.

I agree and disagree with that. I agree you don't need fast halves. However I think that speed needs to come from somewhere.

People do seem to have a set idea in their heads of what each position must provide and Speed at half is one they see and I agree with you that isn't necessary.
I do however think that you need speed in the middle of the park, for some it comes from their halves, for some their fullback.

Cronk has played most of his career in front of Billy Slater who is no slouch

I don't think our problem is that we don't have enough speed in the halves it's that we don't have any speed at all in the middle of the park. The number of times i saw Watkins look back on his inside and see nobody last season was silly. Similarly our offloads were rarely on to a player steaming through and far more often to players either stood still or to forwards.

What the team is missing is what everyone dismissed as easy 10 years ago with McGuire. That player who can ghost through a gap, who is away before you know it and is on the shoulder of every ball carrier. I've said before that the thing stopping Hardaker being a world class player isn't his passing, it's his support play.

Indeed. I recall watching Iestyn at the Bulls do the same stuff he used to do for us to open gaps but being unable to get through them. Similarly, McGuire has reached that stage.

It's not essential to have lightening fast halves but when we play McGuire and Sinfield there we're at the other end of the spectrum. One is fine but both pose little threat as runners which makes them easier to defend.

Your preference for blogs rather than facts to back up your opinions explains everything

What that then, that its a game of opinions not a spreadsheet accountancy exercise?

The problem alone isn't that the halves don't have speed, I still think you can be successful with them. Problem comes when you have,
Slow Halfbacks + Workhorse Forwards
Apart from Ablett none of our main forwards are or have ever been really threatening near the line. Look at the tries Sinfield created for Burgess and Westwood in the WC just a little over 12 months ago as well as the one for Watkins in the Semi vs NZ. All done with his lack of pace but good support runs. Someone mentioned earlier that halves could do with speed to create doubt in the defenders minds about what they might do......well if there's a lack of good runs from forwards looking like serious threats/options then regardless of speed you don't have doubt in defenders minds. The lack of tries we get from our forwards, barring Ablett, is very poor.

Agree with that. It's partly why I think we need at least one of Ward or Walters in the team.

I have take the trouble to back up my opinions with stats which are based on facts whereas the best neruda has come up with is a blog to support his opinion!

You have come up with an opinion based on stats, just like the person writing the blog has come up with an opinion. One has some credibility.

I have been supporting Leeds since the late 50's and I have seen a fair few players from several eras including both the greats and the journeymen of our wonderful game. In addition I have a reasonable level of coaching and managing experience where stats were used. This does not mean I can never to be wrong of course as my opinions are formed like most others: ie: watching players in matches and sometimes in training and we can all get it wrong on occasions.

It seems to annoy you, and one or two others, that I am sometimes able to back up my opinions with stats and analysis when you cannot. So you cry "foul" and seek to insult and discredit on a personal level. Unable to counter my arguments you therefore conclude that I am unable to form opinions without stats. This judgement like much of your opinion comes without supporting evidence but with a helping of arrogance.

My postings with regard to Hardaker since he came into the side has been both supportive and critical as IMO he is some work to do before he can be classed as a 'great' or a 'class' act. I have made these comments before offering supporting stats

As I have previously posted he is a good player with a great physical game including tackle busts, strength in the tackle, fielding kicks and returns and he has a good work rate with a high number of carries and makes good metres. So he can fairly be regarded among the best defensive fullbacks in SL.

However IMO he is below par in his attacking skills with generally poor passing and kicking ability. He is often greedy, ignoring overlaps (a rugby cardinal sin) and his link play does not create enough. He also has a suspect temperament. So on attack he has some way to go before he can be regarded as the one of the best attacking fullbacks in SL. As attack is one of the key roles, if not the key role of the fullback, these are serious deficiencies. This does not mean he will not improve and I have not suggested we swop him or sell him.

So please try and accept Gotcha that my opinions are fairly formed even if you disagree with them. That would at least give you some credibility.

Not a lot more to be said here - a pretty accurate dissection of Hardaker's current skill set. As I have said before I have seen nothing to suggest Hardaker has the skill set to make a successful half back in an elite side. Whether its stats or blogs you cannot get away from those simple facts.

While I agree with your comment printer about how more than just non workhorse forwards would help bring more out of Sinfield as it was for England the problem is that these are not in a huge abundance of them. The England team obviously have what is considered the creme de la creme of that year and Sinfield (Widdop as well) utilised them very well. In superleague I believe that not many teams have more than one of them e.g. Wigan Farrel, Sts Soliola, Hull Ellis but apart from maybe Warrington who have Hill and Harrison(unlucky injury record). Sinfield unfortunately will have to make the most of what Leeds have because getting a forward like that is difficult. I am going to be positive and hope Cuthbertson in the mix and putting Sutcliffe at LF will help the cause with threatening the opposition line.

There you go again, those are not all facts, simply your opinion defined by you as facts.
You may be right, you may be wrong, but at the end of the day those are merely your opinions.

Stats - produced by independent sources - suggest JC's observations of Hardaker's skill sets are credible. You may not want to accept that that is your choice. You cannot ignore the stats - the professionals don't which should suggest they carry some weight and importance. My views on Hardaker have been consistent throughout this thread - they are supported by the stats. I cannot see where the likes of Gotcha think he could ever make a half back in an elite side on what we have seen on the field.

You can't ignore th stats.....but the conclusion can be varied.
Is Hardaker not scoring and creating enough tries because he isn't good enough offensively and creatively?
Or is he not scoring enough because he's playing in a team that as a whole has been disappointing offensively?

Swap him with Bowen, do you reckon Hardaker's tries & assists remain the same if he'd have played for Wigan in 2014. Similarly do you think Bowen would get as many playing FB for us in 2014?

JC observation is not credible at all. Until there is stats that breakdown into things like, how many tackles were try savers, how many passes resulted in a break for a team mate ending in a try, or how many breaks resulted in trys for the team. These are important and not something general stats produce.

No where on this thread has Gotcha stated he could make an half back in an elite side. I have stated many times we can not write it off until it is tried, and I believe they will try it. Confirming that statement by saying we would not have the best fullback in the country try had we not put him there. Only you and that nimpty JC have taken it off topic by trying and failing to say Hardaker is not the best fullback.

There is s difference.