Everyone knows that Ablett and Ellis were interchanged at centre whenever they were both fit. Ellis spoke about it, the coach spoke about it and it was discussed at length on here most of the year ( the view of some of us was that it wasn't working - especially as we were rotating Smith and Hall as well). However, Ablett was not replaced at right centre by Ellis in the GF. He was replaced by Senior. The fact that Ellis and Ablett intrchanged during the whole game at centre is irrelevent to the point. DISA is wrong - and clearly didn't watch or can't remember the match.
That was a tactical shrewd move to counter an attacking pattern Saints came up with. The fact we did this makes me think that the coaching staff and players at Leeds were well prepared for it. Oh, and by the way we won the GF with Ablett in the centres and Senior and Ellis. Just like we won the GF with Ali, Ellis, JJB and Ablett in the second row.

Hooray. Hooray. Hooray.

A modicum of sense.

DISA, don't worry about the personal abuse. I won't report you for it. I am not sensitive at all. You'd have to be a complete lifeless turd to cry to a mod about what someone says about you on here.

However, I am going to use it as an excuse for a cheap shot.......

Are you sure you didn't see Phil Daly shoring up our right centre in the Grand Final?

Not dissagreeing earlier in season, and even mid season. But it didn't happen in those games prior to the GF.



Again I am not dissagreeing with you. I am not critisizing Ablett, and nor have I done on eithe post on this thread.

I repeat again. We were getting over run in that first quarter of the first half, and we changed things by putting Ablett to second row and Ellis to centre.

Whether we won the GF because of either change In the game I dont really give a poop. But we did not win a GF with Ablett at Centre. We won a GF because of the changes made.

we turned a GF round after this point, doesn't mean that the win was because of it, or even contributed. that is opinion.

:3tosyg7a

Fair enough then. But the only fact then is that we won a GF :3tosyg7awhen

true. we Also won a GF when Ellis was taken away from the pack

Like we had done all year? Yes?



Where did Senior move to and where was Ellis - left or right?

BTW, all season long Ablett did not put on as appalling a defensive display as Ellis did in the CC Semi.

Not sure where that takes the discussion or what the relevance is but there you go.

Leeds won a GF with Ablett starting at right centre appears to be the only facts confirmed here.

thank you

all this arguing about what happened in the GF is pointless, i think its clear that we won the GF despite the RHS rather than because of it,

there is a weakness there, we know there is a weakness there and so does everybody else in the league, the question is whether or not, as we did last year, we can win the league in spite of that weakness,

my point is that question doesnt need to be asked, Watkins is clearly too young to be a first choice centre, we can see that our esteemed coach agrees in how often he doesnt start, which is a centre as a rarity in RL,

we have plenty of cap space, we dont need to move ablett out there, he is a very average centre, and a decent prospect at 2nd row, give him a 2nd row berth, give him a position to call his own, moving him around has stagnated his progress imo

when we have cap space going spare, it seems a poor choice not to use it, when we clearly have a weakness, if Watkins booms and becomes the new inglis or folau there is nothing to stop us moving or dropping whoever comes in, if he doesnt, and he gets fatigued or out of his depth then we have a top quality replacement for him to learn from, rather than needing to risk him, or rely on an a player who was unproven regardless of his injuries and a 2nd row with obvious faillings from centre,

Good. I was beginning to think it was just me.



Good, as above. Watkins again was directly at fault for the Hicks try on Sunday.

It's a continuing problem but I'm afraid it's what you get (and expect) when asking a promising 17 year old to do the job of an experienced centre.

Watkins will never become the new Inglis or Folau laying in the acadamy. I'd much rather he continued to be treated like he is at the moment. When he has come on he has done well. If he continues then he can make the position his own.

I would also argue, that without his flexability, Ablett may have struggled to get much game time in the seoncd row. If anything it has improved his development.

No it isn't. Expand upon that opinion and I will rebut it.

I don't think there is a weakness. I don't care if the rest of the league perceive a weakness. They couldn't exploit it sufficiently last year and show little or no signs of doing so this year..

No he isn't. How old is Israel Falou? Why is there a lower age limit on being first choice?

I can't see it. I don't think the coach can. He may be keeping him on his toes, or keeping him fresh. Jamie Peacock was on the bench Sunday, by your logic does that make him our 3rd best prop?

Do we? How much? How have you come by this information?

Who is there available to use it on that would improve our situation?
No we don't.

Awesome use of that all important cap space. Also that will really help boost changing room morale. How are you going to sell that proposition to the player you're trying to sign?

,The "top quality" guy you've signed on the basis that he'll only play if Watkins isn't up to it and if he is, will be sat in the stands. Just what will this "top quality" player be passing on to Watkins, who has displaced him from the 1st team?

Your propositions are all over the place and I also love the way you, DISA and other pass off ill informed opinion as fact.

why? neither Inglis or Folau were gifted a place in the centres like Watkins has been, both played a lot on the wing, and Inglis played FB a fair bit as well,



would he? i dont believe that at all, i think he would still have got plenty of runs at 2nd row

I dont know what you are banging your head at. What as left or right got to do with anything?

Did Ellis go to centre, did Ablett get moved to second row?

At the time he was behind jjb,ellis,kirke and ali in the pecking order for second row so i disagree with that.

Senior and the right centre swapped places during the GF. This in the opinion of many was one of the key reasons why leeds won the GF

The answer to that would almost certainly get me banned.

he may have done, but considering the quality and experience of the other players in his position, any games he would have been played would have been influenced by his ability to cover a number of positions. Much like Tansey was used.

But I still dont get what that has got to do with what I was arguing. Right/Left/ up the middle it makes no difference. Ablett was still moved from the centre position to second row.

And by the way I too am one of those many who thought swiching the centres was the key reason Leeds won the GF. Hence what I have been saying all along.

Ablett started 7 games in the second row last season (and 15 at centre)

True, and a number in 2007 I'm sure too. Howvere, how many of these would he have started if he was an out and out second row? No-one will know for certain.

I guess that DHM is saying that he thinks that swapping senior to right centre and Ellis/Ablett to left centre was more key than switching Ablett and Ellis between second row and centre.

Also, you seem to have ignored my point that we don't know for certain that Ellis wasn't moved from second row, rather than Ablett being moved from centre

well defensively we struggle on that side, more than the other it seemed to me, also imo Ablett lacks enough agility to be a first choice centre, he often gets stood up



they exploited it to a degree, that degree wasnt enough as we won the GF, but we could have done more imo, and we shouldnt stop striving for more



there isnt, but he makes plenty of rookie mistakes, seems to tire, and his body doesnt seem fully mature to me (i mean that in the straightest possible way) which is mainly because it isnt, he hasnt finished growing, his bones dont have their adult strength yet and playing too much from a young age is dangerous



on form he probably is, if Watkins was ready he would be there, he would be trusted to play with ryan hall outside him, and the coach would want them playing together as much as possible so they can strike up a quality partnership which would benefit leeds for years to come,

the facts are he is clearly (imo) being protected by bluey, which is great, but which shows us for big games, maybe Watkins isnt the answer



well we bid for soliola who is top top quality player who wont have come cheap after getting eastwood and buderus, we since havent brought eastwood in so we have at the very least eastwoods wage and soliolas who will both be on a good wedge in rl terms



Adam Mcdougall could do a year, Ty Williams could probably be got, Id have a look at how fit Matt Geyer has kept himself, maybe have a word with the Warriors, see if we could get Mannering if they are wanting Crocker or Eastwood, if Soliola isnt over his injuries then have a look at his team mate Sa




better use of it than it sitting in the bank, why would you think that it would affect morale to have competition in the backs,

and if we went for experience of Williams, Mcdougall or Geyer then we tell them to earn their next contract, if its a Mannering, Soliola or Sa then they have a shirt for next year anyway when Senior goes and can cover elsewhere anyway



no, this guy will play and it is up to Watkins to displace him, Watkins doesnt deserve a free run at that spot, it isnt his and he hasnt yet earned it, if he has the potential we think he has which is not to be a good player, but a truly world class player then he will displace whoever we bring in, if he isnt, then his development isnt hampered by only playing 15 games this year instead of 25



i like the blind faith you have in the leeds youth system that means not only can we replace pretty much everyone who leaves/retires with an academy product, but that they will magically be ready as soon as that person retires/leaves, even in unexpected cases caused by injury like Toopi's,

if Toopi hadnt suffered his injury we wouldnt be talking about this, Watkins would be in reserve and we wouldnt be having this conversation,

and if that was the case, i really cant imagine you, after how watkins has performed so far this season, proclaiming that 4 games into the season we should release toopi and make Watkins centre, just because Toopi got injured doesnt mean Watkins is any more ready