St Helens have a First Team Squad of 30 Players, Plus 3 players loaned out in Super League:
Steve Tyrer, Matty Smith (Celtic Crusaders)
Scott Moore (Huddersfield Giants)

Leeds Rhinos have a First Team Squad of 24 Players...

So quantity means quality then?

No it means they have more strength in depth and a variety of players to call upon who can fit into the team with ease and do a good job in Super League...

Having 30 players doesnt mean strength in depth. The extra players may or may not be [i[/ie.

Hence why i wrote

But if they havent been called on how do you know they are good enough.

Quantity does not mean quality.

Said the Bishop to the Choirboy.

Tad was all over the place last night, and couldn't keep a consistent line of questioning or opinion.

Look: We have achieved success in the past by use of a big squad and player rotation, and we have also achieved success with a smaller active squad a more consistent lineup. We have also seen failure come about with both a thin squad, and failure come about with repeated rotation of a larger squad.
Part of our problem this year has been we're disorganised in our RHS defence, possibly because we have used four different players at centre on that side. Perhaps less options for that position might have even helped us.


The real point, which would have got to if you could have answered the questions, is that it isn't the size of the quality of the squad that's hurting us. Measure the talent of the squad we have available, and it's clearly better than twelve teams in the league, and a close call on the last.
The question is, why aren't they playing like it?

I reckon this has something to do with it [urlhttp://viewtopic.php?t=370008[/url

If Tad had played along, we'd have seen that replacements don't always need to come from external signings.

There are still many that think any player leaving, for whatever reason, must be replaced by an external signing. Leaves you wondering what the acedemy is for.

Yes because the world famous Leeds conveyor belt of up and coming stars is really turning them out, have you seen the reserves this year, they are criminally poor.

But hey, in your world lets throw them in anyway.

That reminds me, next time I am asked to headhunt a Senior Manager I will bring forward a YTS.

I never said it does...


Youngsters like Kyle Eastmond,Chris Dean, Gareth Frodsham, Gary Wheeler, Tom Armstrong, Matty Ashurst, Andrew Dixon and Jonny Lomax have all played in the St Helens First Team this season and haven't looked out of place also Jacob Emmitt but i don't know how he performed...

I completely agree.

The Academy is there to support the first team squad at the club, supplying a constant flow of new blood. However that doesn't absolutely mean that external signings are never required, which appears the logical conclusion you maybe heading towards.

In the Championship winning seasons of 2004, 2007 and 2008 Webb, Bai, Donald, Toopi, McKenna, Senior, Dunemann, Leuluai, Peacock, McDonald, Thackray, Furner, Adamson, Poching, Ellis, Lauitiiti and Anselme were not products of the famed Leeds Academy production line but they still had their part to play in the squad's ultimate success in those seasons.

It's all about having the correct balance and when the quality is lacking internally then it has to be an acceptable alternative to look outside the club.

Hence the second point about squad quality.
It isn't that lack of quality that's hurting us, and bringing in another player to also play well below his potential isn't going to help, and if it's a short term signing it may well hinder our long term success.

I think it is the lack of quality to some degree - especially in the forwards. I think there are a few forwards that have been terrific over the last few years but are not quite where they were last year or the year before. I believe with the loss of Ellis (and Scruton to some degree) this has had a cumulitive effect which is what we are seeing now. There are also some players who have not kicked on as we would like so far this year. I don't want to go through individuals, but it's an overall effect for me.

anyone can beat anyone on there day

A mid season signing wouldn't necessarily need to be short term. From the Leeds experience Lauitiiti, Thackray and Toopi all arrived midway through a season and none of those were short term signings. The only short term mid season signing I can recall recently was Anselme and that was a loan deal to cover several back row absentees.

No-one is unavailable at the moment (Smith apart) but the squad is struggling to perform to an acceptable level consistently. Why is that and what are the options available to the club?

That's whole different subject


Personally, I feel that's the way the league should be going, and is going.
Others would rather see the "big" clubs, their clubs, dominant in the transfer market and hope that would equate to playing success.

By short term, I was thinking more along the lines of it being a player to fill in a right centre for example, likely meaning one of Smith or Hall missing game time and not developing.

On the squad not performing, was it this thread or the other, where I had said that one players level of performance changing is down to the player, lots of players level of performance changing is down to the coach.
Our coaching staff need to be looking at what they're doing with the team, not looking at bringing in new players (to play below their potential, too)

So is that a change to the coaching methods or a change of the coaching set-up that is required?

McClennan (contracted until the end of 2010), Cummins, Poching and Gross. If they devised a plan they thought was right at the outset will they be able to change direction mid season or is it just a matter of small adjustments to get the squad firing again?

Someething in that area.
I doubt we would sack a GF winning coach the season after, and nor should we. Although Saints do seem to have been more ruthless with their coaching staff over the years...I think.
Something is obviously not working - current form is too poor to be simply a case of holding back our form to peak later in the season.
We have had times under Tony Smith when every player seemed to underperform, and the team seemed to have no plan. He turned it around, no reason to believe the current setup can't do the same.

Yep rating's. www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/l ... 5206407.jp

Yep rating's. www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/l ... 5206407.jp

This where you simply don't get it - why have played so many players at right centre? because we haven't got a natural right centre so we have no option but to play players out of position so to take you arguement to its logical conclusion we have 25 options at right centre what we don't have a specialist right centre.

That is one issue not the only issue - the thing about the squad is it not better on paper than Saints, Wigan, Huddersfield, Hull, it could be argued that the likes of Warrington on paper have a better squad the problem is the game is not played on paper. Saints, Wigan and Huddersfield have a far better set of youngsters coming through to pad their squads out. If you don't agree do the comparison player for player.

Another issue where the size of the squad comes in is when players are performing badly and need resting - the current squad does not have the depth to replace these players without a significant drop of performance. So all that happens is these just get their confidence drained completely and as a result their performances suffer - if you went to the game on Friday look at the likes of Burrow, Webb, Senior, JJB, Kirke, Diskin all of these players need rotating to give them an opportunity to regain their confidence - the current squad does not allow that so you end up with a downward spiral which also effects the players who were playing OK.

Finally if the players don't believe the club have given them the tools to do the job ie a competitive squad that will drain their confidence and belief - the defeats to Saints - by the captain's admission - really knocked them to be demolished twice over by a team you could beat shows all the players where the momentum is - and don't forget Saints played the CC cup game away from hope without their playmaker!! One of the reasons Harris left Leeds was because the club failed to build on the platform set by Murray this current situation is the third time this has happened - coincidence!!!

Unreal - it is precisely that this is hurting us the lack of quality - perhaps if we brought a right centre in who played to his potential might help - who is to say he will play below his potential.

This is a pretty weak squad - no longer the dominant force it was - teams like Huddersfield have strengthened both with overseas and youngsters, Saints have an abundance of youngsters and we have a weaker squad than last year - could be why we are struggling a bit.

The wins in 2007 and 2008 covered up much of what had been a gradual decline in squad quality - 2009 has seen this decline really being exposed