Best and totally dominant, to a debatable 5th best in two years is a pretty big drop. I think what Sal was getting at, is without addressing this problem quickly that fall is going to keep gaining momentum.

Your comment about GH is not correct. Look at our sister club, then look at us. Not that I give a 5h1t about union, but there is a lot of displeasure with that lot at the moment at the way GH has handled the club, most notably recruitment and coaching. It kind of rings a bell when you look at the Rhinos for the last 18 months also. A serious "taking the eye off the ball" has happened with GH over the last couple of years, and he has a lot of ground to make up.

Alternatively rather than just three bags full you can have an input - just because you pay your money doesn't mean you should just accept what is going on. Walking away isn't the only way to get the message across, neither is total obsequiousness as you suggest. Any supporter who just accepts that the board gets everything correct isn't a supporter in my view they are follower - big difference.

As I said earlier why bother with a forum - everything is rosy - the board are beyond critic.

I have never said that the board get everything correct. Obviously they don't. They're not beyond critique. What I'm saying is there's no point getting angry about it, or trying to change it retrospectively. You can criticise them all you like if it makes you happy. Whatever floats your boat. What I'm saying is I don't understand why you'd want to pay money to moan, critique, complain, belittle, second guess, disagree and just generally grumble about something. I'm not stopping you doing it, I'm just saying I don't understand why you bother. Each to their own. I'm onto my 14 (possibly 15th?!) season ticket in a row now, so I'm clearly a loyal supporter, what I'm saying is as much as I love Leeds, I'm not going to give myself a heart attack over decisions that they may or may not get wrong.

As to why bother with a forum... it's a place to discuss all things Leeds, and O/T subjects with people whom you share a common interest with. Although you're right, I sometimes wonder why I do bother.

The glass is half full mate... Sunny side up... Always look on the bright side of life, de dum, de dum de dum de dum... Chin up... Smile, it confuses people... Don't worry, be happy...etc etc.

I've got to disagree really, because while I accept the club has a duty of care to it's employees, it's duty of care only extends as far as employment law, H&S etc and it's contractual obligations to the employee. If we expect clubs to go further than that then the club should, rightly, expect something similar in return from the player. Also these aren't young 17 year olds who are just starting out, Burgess is 24 & Cross is 32. Both should be experienced in how clubs work by now and don't need protecting in some way from any naive decisions that might be made by younger lads.
Burgess has played in 11 out of 17 SL games this season and IIRC he missed a few of those through injury as well so he's hardly been totally overlooked all season (although I would agree the constant selection of Kirke is slightly confusing). If, as it appears, Burgess has thrown his toys out of the pram I would expect there to be some kind of disciplinary measure taken against him. Maybe in this case it's been non-selection for first team games. I don't expect him to be happy about not playing every week, that's good and shows some enthusiasm, but I do expect him to be professional about it, work his backside off in training and force his way back into the team.
It also comes nowhere close to constructive dismissal.

As for Cross, well until the details come out I have a bit more sympathy with the player on this one since as you say he's brought his family across the world, but there are rumours of disciplinary problems so I'll keep an open mind on this one until the truth comes out.

As for GH, I think the comments are a bit harsh to be honest. Considering no club in the modern era has had a period of dominance such as the one Leeds enjoyed don't you think it only natural for their to be a decline of some sort at some sort? I think it's just a cycle in sport, especially a salary capped one, and whilst I'm sure there are things GH has got wrong I think you're underestimatingthe difficulties of keeping a side consistently winning major trophies. Also if Warrington, Hudds & Wigan were as gash now as they were 5 years ago we'd be about 2nd or 3rd. Other teams have improved whilst we are going through a natural decline. Admittedly with a few poor decisions tacked on.

Good stuff "Him" and i agree.
Gotcha ,GH is more than capable of running this club and his record stands up to any other in SL.
As for his "running" of the union side that's nothing to do with the Rhinos and to be fair that squad with that coach should not of finished bottom given the state of Newcastle and Sale so the team and coaches take 90% of that blame.
Of course things can go wrong and i don't think the club are totally perfect in everything they've done but the free-fall ,GH out of his depth etc etc are way OTT imo.
just to add i'll decide if my own opinion on GH is right or wrong thanks ,feel free to disagree but don't "Tell2 me what i should think.

I'm a little puzzled by this. We seem to be collecting props then donating them to other clubs without using them. So what if Burgess threw his teddies out after not being selected? Jason Robinson smashed the changeing rooms up with a sledge hammer at Wigan after Inga was selected ahead of him for the CC final.
I think Burgess should have been playing, Cross, well, not a great signing was he to begin with, but you have to say 10 games in a team that collectively has not been outstanding and been haevily disrupted by injury for the early season is hardly a fair run.

Not great management here. A set of incidents to forget.

Gh =#FF0000has run this club superbly, not just capable. The key is =#FF0000has. You can not use an argument based on history when we are talking about today.

Should we ignore a criminals offence if he's never committed a crime before? No we shouldn't. Everything should be judged on the here and now.

It may well be that GH will deliver again. But his last two years performance in his role at the club, for both League and Union should be seriously questioned. As with anyone in that role in all companies with a similar performance.




I am not going to proffess about knowing RU, because I think it is 5h1te. I do however know a few who are corporate members of Carnegie, and I know there is a lot of discontent at the way the club has been run over the last 18 months. In particular most of the fans knew they would be relegated at the start of the season due to the poor squad strength, which is completely the oppossit to what you believe.




So what is your definition of free fall? decline? You don't think totally dominant to 5th best (and that arguable) is a big drop in such a short time?




And that's the way it should be. Has anyone actually told you what you should think on here?

So that's how it works.

If only you'd been around 40+ years ago with that advice .... funny thing is I've never been able to set aside my feelings for the club I support.

Gotcha ,My Definition of free-fall and serious decline is happening live as we speak up the road at the Grattan "Pot-Hole".
Like i posted above i accept some mistakes have been made ,last year we made the CC final and were in the qualifying semi for the GF after one of the worst seasons in our history for injuries to key players so i don't class that as "failure".
This year is where i agree re-mistakes especially recruitment/retention but that alone points to transitional/dip to me not freefall and it's interesting to see how GH and the club react but it's not beyond repair either.
Don't get me wrong i am NOT saying everything is fine and dandy and GH is beyond question/critic i just don't think it's either terminal or as bad as you and Sal make out.
As for the union side i attended a couple of games last year and many i spoke to thought that squad could/should of stayed up so we have to agree to disagree.

See [url=http://www.caddickconstruction.co.uk/our-history.aspxthis?[/url This I reckon is the one source of opinion about GH's performance that matters.

This... is irrelevant tripe I'm afraid




It appears you're sure trying.

Hang on a minute, let's just make sure you are sure what you are saying here, because you make a valid point.

2005 Bradford were Super League Champions
2006 Bradford finished 4th and reached the final elminator
2007 Bradford finished 3rd and CC semi final
2008 Bradford finished 5th
2009 Bradford finished 9th
2010 Bradford finished 10th

In contrast

2009 Leeds were Super League Champions
2010 Leeds finished 5th and reached the final eliminator
2011 ?? No chance of Leeds finishing higher than 5th.

Bradford went from Champions to 5th in 3 seasons, we look like doing it in 2.

I would say your point should be taken on board considerably and learnt from very quickly.

Not that straightforward though is it?

Afterall Hetherington is much more than a mere paid employee from what I can gather.

Probably more chance of Caddick walking away.

_________



Are you sure? And why have Bradford got a Challenge Cup Semi credit and Leeds received nothing for going one stage further?

Does Leeds Rugby turn a profit? Do many other clubs? Is success index linked to funds in the club? Is success and profit linked to numbers on turnstiles on matchday or is it also to do with the "Executive" side of the business?

Since when did going through a transition whilst redeveloping the ground whilst still turning a profit denote the failings of a COO?

He's a CEO not a COO.

And what's this weeks lottery numbers? I ask because you obviously can see into the future. How else can anybody read a set of acounts that has not happend yet?

So what?

You've not measured like for like - in case you haven't noticed, Bradford's free fall is still happening and they could soon hit the depths of SL. If it wasn't for Cru and Wakey's financial problems things could be a lot worse for them.

For once I agree with KS in that we're still better than the rest of the teams beneath us, including Bradford. I can't see us dropping off the pace anything like them.

So what? How more like for like do you want it.

The situation isn't are we the same as Bradford, christ would you find that acceptable? The question should be how do we stop ourselves doing a Bradford. We are already declining faster than they did initially, it's what happens in the next 3 years now as to whether we have done as bad.

In fairness, their decline was accelerated, by all accounts, by the disintegration of their business, which I don't believe we're facing.

I do agree that there needs to be evidence of re-building, otherwise it will be unclear what we're in a transition to. But I don't think we're on the same slippery slope as Bradford, whatever the on-field issues may be.

We must agree to disagree - I think a good employer considers it obligation to its employees as going well beyond statutory. Regarding Burgess we don't know what is meant by a disappointing - anything approaching rattles and cot are pure speculation. We have no idea how hard he is training and what has been said to him as to why he isn't being picked.

On Cross - there have been no rumours of discipline issues - so I think that is a red herring tbh

Any successful enterprise is constantly striving to maintain its position - they don't accept cycles as an excuse, Saints have been a challenging side throughout the whole of the SL era - they have won more trophies than Leeds during this time with a significantly lower revenue stream. For me it isn't about winning it is about being competitive - Saints have been competitive throughout the SL era.

What I find disappointing is the inability to build when the club has the opportunity - the appointment of McDermott is a backwards step compared to the previous coach IMO. The contract renewal of poorly performing players like Senior, Ali, Kirke, etc is hardly building for the future.

Gotcha you're a fan on a website going on like you're a shareholder in an annual meeting.

Get a grip on yourself man, it's pathetic.

I care. I'm bothered. It's not like I'm not bothered if we lose. It's just I'm a happy guy. I enjoy my life. Leeds is a big part of it and has been since before I could walk, but it's not the ONLY part of my life. I have other things to keep me happy if we lose. I just try to stay happy and get on with my life win or lose. The winning is a buzz, sure, but I try to push the losing straight out of my mind and get on with my weekend. I don't sulk all day Saturday if we got battered. Some think that makes me a bad fan. Up to them really.

What's pathetic is your constant obsession with me. I'm sorry but I'm married and not interested.

I don't see anyone on here saying things haven't been good in the past, but with all businesses you cannot rest on your laurels. The question is can this team beat any of the top 4 sides when it matters - evidence this year would suggest not. Then the question is how will a disappointing season effect corporate revenue next year - as Bradford have shown the downward spiral can gather speed pretty quickly.

The other concern would be Caddick - given the virtual non existence of new business building does he have the liquidity to keep supporting the RU or will this also have to be supported by the Rhinos as has been the case recently.

Again, Bradford's downward spiral seems to have been led by the off-field business, which, as I understand it (hearsay, obviously, I won't pretend any inside knowledge) was well underway when they won the 2005 GF.

Again, I don't disagree that the on-field business is key and that it will ultimately affect the off-field business, but I think we may need a little perspective before we compare with Bradford.

The word "decline" keeps getting banded around - from three titles in consecutive years and four in six years, there was only one way to go.

Draw analogies to Saints all you like, but how many Grand Finals have they won since 2004? If you're seriously suggesting you'd rather be "competitive" every year than win the top prize three years running you need your bumps feeling.

This "decline" resulted in Leeds making the Challenge Cup final, winning a playoff game away at the league leaders and getting within 80 minutes of Old Trafford, despite losing their two best players for the business end of the season. Wigan and Warrington apart, I'm guessing every other club in SL would have quite happily swapped places with this "team in decline".

Yes, there is work to be done restructuring an ageing side and a couple or recruitment/retention decisions haven't worked out, but FFS that's sport. Some people have been around long enough to know that no team ever remains dominant for long unless they have a massive advantage over the competition (Wigan in the 80s/90s for example).

Is completely right. Last time I looked Leeds weren't struggling financially with twin millstones of a radically expensive white elephant of a ground and a radically expensive court case and subsequent costs due to a white elephant of a player!

Leeds are just beginning to go through a transitional phase. When you look at the history of the club you get more perspective. Perhaps it's not your turn to be in the top 4 for a bit, but I'm sure you'll be back as will we.