Neither had Lunt before Friday. That was the 1st time he'd done 80 mins in his career.

So it was McShane's fault when the pack gets hammered? I haven't seen every game McShane has played, but he did more than "OK" against Manly. His defence, which many have had a go at, was excellent against a far tougher pack than anything he'll face in SL, and he showed a lot of nous at the PTB, freeing Burrow for more of an orthodox scrum half role. What's odd is then dropping him for Hood almost straight after, rather than giving McShane a real run at the role.

If McShane leaves (unlikely for the time being as presumably Lunt is cup-tied) I personally think he has some grounds for complaining that to date he hasn't been given the sort of run he may have deserved and other players have had.

As for Lunt, I'd expect a full international to be able to step in and do a good job from the off. It will be interesting to see how he's viewed when we have the inevitable bad performance with him in the team.

I tend to find we as fans overestimate players on good days ("nobody could have lived with us", "player X is world class"icon_wink.gif, and underestimate them on bad days ("nobody could have lived with them", "player X is useless"icon_wink.gif. The overestimation tends to reach fever pitch with newbies as well.

Apologies - Lunt apparently isn't cup-tied as presumably didn't play for Hudds in the cup.

i maybe wrong but didn't Lunt & Mcshane both make their super league debuts the same year? whilst i think many would agree that macca's had better hookers in front of him, Lunt has had to deal with N.Brown's 'i want half a team of sevens' so its not been a easy walk in the park for him. Paul's biggest issue for mine is his consistency, he very quickly swings from looking a class act to looking like a championship player (sometimes even in the same game), which in a vital position like hooker is never going to win him any brownie points with either the coach or the fans. So whilst yes i agree that there have been some weird team selections around him, like being dropped after manly, you can hardly blame the coach for not trusting him fully and keeping half an eye on what's best for the team not just the player.

as for the centre comment, I'd certainly be weighing up the pros & cons of ablett taking the other centre spot.

agreed. Lunts debut was decent but not world class.McShare played well against Manly but certainly not so well its worth using in a discussion. I do think though that he hasn't had a settled run in the team. you have to ask yourself why.

McShane did get picked for the game at Wigan but coach McDermott chose not to use him from the bench and McShane did get selected in the game following Manly which was away at Widnes. The rotating with Hood started the following week at Castleford and including that game McShane has played in five and Hood four of the Leeds games played since.



Not sure if it would matter even if he had at this stage of the competition after the Hull FC fiasco in 2008 when they played Jamie Thackray in the opening two rounds (that's round 4 and 5 for SL clubs) which led to the rules being tightened.

Either way providing Leeds get past Salford he'd be available from the quarter-final onwards even under the old rules that Hull fell foul of.

Inside the mind of Juan:

Loves - Ben 'Techncially Awful' Cross

Dislikes - Paul 'Potential' McShane.

Dark place isn't it.

I have already said I saw the Cas game and yes McS had a good game. He made a quick pass from the PTB for Hall to score and made one or two good runs from D/half and scored a try against a poor and tired defence. But that day JP was back and Leeds were up for it and Cas were not.

Against Manly he put in a good defensive stint (as did the rest of the team) and he made one good kick. But he only made a couple of runs and a few metres so was good but not outstanding.

I know you have had a man crush (or was it a boy crush) on McS and have been in his corner so to speak but really two good games is all you can come up with since 2009. It is you who need to get some perspective as despite his promise he has not shown enough consistency or class IMO to command his place at 9. He has not shown the decisive quick distribution needed at this level and will be 23 next so really should have made it by now. I am not writing the "kid" off - it is just that I have never been convinced of his pedigree and I guess successive coaches may share my doubts. I really hope he is a late developer and does make it.

Quite how you can equate my support for Owen Farrell, who has class, and was making his International debut at 20 and who had cemented a place in the RU Champions side at 19 with a player who has failed to gain a regular place at Leeds despite making his debut 3 years ago is odd. Farrell proved my predictions to be correct and your judgement to be wrong. He fully justified my comments with his performances whereas McS has not justified your judgement.....yet.

I have rated Lunt quite highly from what I have seen of him at Hudderfield and he showed all the things I look for on his impressive Leeds debut. Are you saying this was a fluke?

I shall not reply to your other illogical ramblings as I assume you had had a glass or two of Rioja

Even more impressive then!

While inside the heart of BB the love pours out for the "technically awful" Bailey

and now do I detect a certain feeling arousing in you for Master "full of promise" McShane. Careful BB... rhinoms will get jealous

I'm a fan of mcshane, and he has shown glimpses of his class, but hasnt been given a sustained run of games to show it on a more regular basis, that said if lunt can keep putting in performances like friday, its going to be hard for mc to get back in. Ive heard that he could be out for a while and may have to go under the knife, not sure if this is true mind

So you play down Mcshanes performance against Cas by saying Leeds were up for it and Cas were not yet big up Lunts efforts against a Catalan team we were CLEARLY "up for" and dominated for most of the game.
Just to add Mcshanes shasrp cut out passes wide created 2 tries aswell as his own and he brought a creative kicking game.
It's amazing how you pass off opinions as some kind of "crush" when you disagree and just because Mcdermott has rotated and in somecases not picked Mcshane doesn't mean he isn't any good especially given how he used the 9 spot last year.
You keep writing the kid off and i'll stand by my opinion and whilst you keep throwing numbers around as some sort of evidence Cross is a good Prop and chelp against Bailey i'll trust my own judgement thanks.
Also IF you think Farrell has proved his class after 5 minutes i look forward to seeing him lead England to a Grand Slam and a World Cup.

I agree with most of what you put, but I think that the argument seems to get hung up on this Cas performance, and the performance against Manly. The Cas performance was very good. His best, but was a year ago against a weak-ish team, and have been the exception rather than the norm unfortunately. The game against Manly was decent but I would hardly consider it worthy of being used as an argument for what he brings to the table.

Personally, I wish we had seen more of McShane and he'd been given a number of games in a row to build some form and consistency. I do think he has potential and offers quite a lot.

On your last point about Farrell, firstly I think he has been a success having claimed an England jersey at a young age, and looked one of the better players. However, good as he may be, England winning honours is hampered by many other things such as other team, the rest of his team mates, style of play etc. If England don't win another title for the duration of his career that doesn't make him a failure

What is 'technically awful' about the multi-talented machine that is TMFMISL?

I am a long standing supporter of our youth system. It's great to see players make the step-ups into our first team. Some will be flavours of the month, some will make it, some will make it elsewhere etc. So yes I do have affection for McShane. But I have the same spirit for others like Daniel Smith and Singleton etc.

We've built championships on the back of our investment in youth. So when a chancer, injury ridden, loose canon, techncially awful, 30+, rookie comes along it does leave me feeling a little sad inside.

So, you weren't keen on cross then?

At the risk of upsetting Rhinoms again your argument seems to be based on TWO games. This will be Macca's fourth season in the first team(made his debut in 09), This season in particular he has been very ordinary in the games he has played in, He was ok in the WCC but nothing special.
Lunt has come in with 3 training sessions and run the game something macca has never done.

Something like that.



For the record - he's a tool.

I haven't got a problem with your loyalty to McShane and you are right to stick up for him if that is your judgement. Although I have seen great promise in McS it has never gone further than that IMO. I do not know the number of minutes he has played but I except that a lack of game time may have stumped his growth so to speak. However in my judgement his inabiliy to perform consistently at a high level is perhaps more due to a lack of genuine class. IMO he takes the wrong options in as many cases as correct ones and is something of a 50/50 man with much of what he does the result of fortune rather than good decision making which is why he rarely has repeated the performance in the Cas game you refer to. This does not make him a bad player but rather not good enough in a pivotal position to be first choice for the Champion side.

So rhinoms we just have different views on this player who by the way is no longer a "kid" in SL terms. But you cannot compare this with anything I have said about Cross. Whilst you are on record as saying you highly rate McShane I have never said I highly rate Cross I merely sought to restore some balance from over the top negative comments made by certain posters. While acknowledging Cross's bad discipline I have pointed out his positive side which compared favourably with most of our props. That I chose to have a "chelp" at Bailey along the way is in part to counter the OTT Bailey brigade and also to keep Bloodbath busy.



Quite why you raise the subject of Farrell is odd. Here was a star for both last years Champions at 19 and for England in all 6 Nations Internationals (not 5 mins!) at 20. Considering in this case you chose to doubt the player's skills or class before his International debut ("writing the kid off" as you would say) and persist in this opinion despite events proving the contrary, shows either a stubborn prejudice or questionable judgement. You may have to put this opinion in the same place as your judgement on both Brian McD and Burrow on the bench last year and Burrow as a starting at hooker this year.



To end on a positive note I have to say rhinoms that when you eventually do take off the Ray-Bans and see the light you then correct your views.......it just takes time

[iLoose canon[/i eh...? It gets worse. They're the worst those [iimmoral priest[/i type people; they really really are. Well rid of him we are

Although I agree with JC on his views regarding Mcshane, I can't say the same on Mr Sin Bin/Sicknote.

its make or break for the lad

He still hasn't been afforded that many chances though really in those four seasons you talk about.

For the record though I have never been convinced on rhinoms thoughts on McShane. I think the club made a huge mistake last season in letting Buderus go. With McShane, he obviously has the potential. He has a great kicking game that is under used, he has good distribution. His tackling game is adequate if nothing great. But something just doesn't fit. He is to me a scrum half who is just not good enough for a scrum half role, rather than an out and out hooker. For me he is a mirror image of Dean Lawford. But for those that don't remember him, he too was regarded very highly by coaches with an excellent technical game, but he just couldn't deliver when he got into the match. That for me is where I see McShane at the moment. But who knows he may well take that step that Lawford couldn't.

It was Lawfords lifestyle and failure to commit to hard work that was his un-doing.

In game, his passing was sublime and had a very useful long and short kicking game. Very 'old-school'.

Not exactly helped by his razor sharp intellect.

Isn't he the player who when on holiday in Tunisia said he wanted to hire a car and go explore the island?

There are dozens of examples of his 'logic' doing the rounds, that seem to end up in former team mates auto-bios!!

But I wouldn't question his rugby brain. Two different beasts.