Quote ="CAGED RHINO"a010.gif you got it bang on there RR He definately has my vote Captain Kirke Can boldly go backwards everytime he gets the ball'" We, like Spizzenergi, would be asking Where's Captain Kirke? www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVpUZYTt-rQ

Quote ="CAGED RHINO"a010.gif you got it bang on there RR He definately has my vote Captain Kirke Can boldly go backwards everytime he gets the ball'" We, like Spizzenergi, would be asking Where's Captain Kirke? www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVpUZYTt-rQ

I'll have a piece of cake please. Not really a sweetie fan. Cup of tea would go down a treat too if you're feeling generous.

The problem for me in those defending him is that they are being selective in who they compare him too. Think most would agree the re-signing of Lleulai is as equally as bad a decision.

Why do we have to wait for him to " grow into the role " of prop when there are Ambler and Amor waiting in the wings ?
I know many scoff at my mantra of promoting youth, but I really cannot see any advantage in Kirke ( or Lleulai ) over these two.
Somebody please tell me what this ' advantage ' is ?

He had a very good final on Saturday in my opinion, making good yards every time he took the ball up - this is the Kirke we need to see every week.

Nobody is waiting for him to grow into any role (perhaps other than you).

He's a squad player, doing a squad player's job, for what is highly likely to be a squad player's salary. That's his role. No growing required. End of story.

Kirke made small, but significant contributions to the GF wins in 2007 and 2008. He's been excellent value IMO over the last few years as a squad player who comes in and does a solid job and could make a defensive impact off the bench. Smith, Bluey and McD have obviously all rated him. However, unlike Ablett who kicked on and became one of the first names on the team sheet his limitations as a player with ball in hand have never gone away.
I think the last couple of years, in a team that's begun to struggle he's also looked very average and his limitations are even more obvious. He's been around a while as well, so he has age to contend with as well now. For a few years he never let the side down, got on with his job and was good value for money (although I really don't know what level of salary he was on so I'm guessing there a bit).
But as a sportsman you tend to get judged on your last season/performance and if you want to discuss Kirke's current value to the club, then we aren't talking big numbers I'm afraid and I think there are better alternatives barely getting a look in.

Quote ="Clearwing"We, like Spizzenergi, would be asking Where's Captain Kirke? www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVpUZYTt-rQ'" got that on 7" vinyl

Quote ="Clearwing"We, like Spizzenergi, would be asking Where's Captain Kirke? www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVpUZYTt-rQ'" got that on 7" vinyl

Re-read Exeter's post... Something along the lines of him getting used to the role of prop. Exeter's words not mine.

As for the old chestnut of he being only a squad player .... Nothing seems to stop him getting into the FIRST 17 every damn week.
Even on his diminshed impact ability these days I would suggest Lauititi would still be the better choice off the bench.

How do you know what salary he is on compared to Ambler and / or Amor ? Hard then to state he is value for money.

A's for end of s'tory ...sez who ? And im ju'st mis - using apostrophe's now just to annoy you : )... Besides I'm sure you're another one of many who uses it's (apostrophe) when they mean its (no apostrophe).

Tendency to get personal when somebody disagrees with you duly noted. As you were.

Personal ? Me ? Don't be so Fekking stupid you great big spotty nosed spec wearing that must be a xmas present jumper fat rhino

He shys away from the ball. He shys away from impact. These are not attributes one needs on a prop forward.

As DHM says, he had a part to play in our successes but he's been awfully lazy and soft these last two seasons.

I can abide players with limited talent, I can abide players who make mistakes. I can't abide players with no heart.

Poopy poop.

Not your assessment of Kirke, just your last point. One of your favourite players had the smallest heart I have ever seen in a rugby player. Yes, Donald I am talking about.

Kirke is fullfilling a similar role to Bailey. Both are coverted 2nd rows with their main attribute being defence. Both are really only squad players and only feature more promenently now due to our lack of class at prop. Every side needs players of this sort as they are reliable and don't bust the cap.

I wish both would have a better go forward game but as I said they are picked for their defence. Kirke makes fewer carries than Bailey but shows signs of improvement and makes fewer errors, fewer missed tackles, fewer penalties, fewer yellow and red cards and is much faster.

If a prop is only on the field for 30 minutes then you cannot expect him to be actively involved much more than once each minute. If in that period you have less possession then you will not be able to make many drives particularly if you are also making a tackle every minute!

So the stats are effected by the possession and field position for a props time on the field. The starting props have the best chance to make more carries.

Neither are soft.

We'll have to agree to differ on that.

One thing I am certain of, if Scott Donald is given the half chance BJB had Saturday he scores the try and we probably lift the cup.

Even if you were right, which you are not, it's not that big a deal with a winger as it is with a prop.

Donald wouldn't have gone round Richards as easily as BJB did.

Maybe ... But do you think Donald would have scored the one BJB DID score ?

Perhaps. Donald's final try for Leeds was a strong finish against the same opponents in last year's Qualifying Play Off game at the DW Stadium.

Less convinced he'd have finished off the move that Jones-Bishop did for his 1st at the KC Stadium in the Quarter-Final though to bring Leeds back in to the match.

High quality winger's finish that one.

kirke is a pussy and a soft cock.
two sexual references in one sentence there

The only way we can know if the criticism is fair, is if we know what he is being asked to do. Therefore we can deduce that (at least) one of Kirke or McDermott is due criticism, because what Kirke regularly produces on the pitch is not of an acceptable standard for a first 17 prop at a club which aspires to winning the available trophies.

Maybe one way we can really evaluate Kirke's input is to identify which other top clubs would he regularly get a game at? Not many I would suggest.

fair or unfair he's no longer good enough if he ever really was

Kirks is a useful squad player who will look good in a good team, in a team that is playing poorly he won't look good. As has been said he's had a couple of poor seasons now. However he's hardly alone in that.

In the end it all depends how much of the salary cap he's taking up and either way, whether we keep or get rid of Kirke, it won't be the primary reason as to whether Leeds are successful or not next season.

That pretty much sums up my opinion too.

Of course it's not his fault he is continually selected....but again I ask can anybody [iplease[/i tell me what it is he offers in comparison over Amor and/or Ambler ? (and Lauititi whilst we still have him)

Put it another way: out of 8 props (Peacock, Lleulai, Moore, Bailey, Kirke, Amor, Ambler, Singleton) which 5 would you narrow it down to for a[i more than [/iadequate first team squad and why ?

[iFor me the 5 to prioritise are:[/i

Peacock: old but still much to offer (hopefully)
Moore: old but guess he should be given an opportunity (perhaps)
Amor: young, played well in SL and should be encouraged/given an opportunity to kick on.
Ambler: See Amor
Singleton: young with bags of potential

[uTo miss out:[/u

Leulai: old and shows no appetite for than 10 mins.
Kirke: old and [unever[/u going to get better than barely adequate.
Bailey: too interested in coasting/winding up opposition (which doesn't work against a good well disciplined team). Might be a better option to Moore, to scrape into the first 5, but not much of a ringing endorsement.

Actually Mr Ross might not be a bad idea after all.

If the OP has watched Kirke all season i can't see how some of the criticism isn't justified tbh.
It can get to a point where it's a "Witch hunt" but if you rate him on a game by game basis you can see past posts where his performance has been good and as such has been mentioned.
From my own POV and having seen what Amor has produced and the potential Singleton and Syron have shown i don't see how retaining Kirke helps our squad now.
He's done a job for us but at 30 and the team re-building beginning i just think we should be looking elsewhere and just to add i don't see what signing Moore brings either.

I'd like to see Singleton play a bit more next year. Not too much too soon though, I think he still has some physical development to come from what I've seen of him. Young players mature physically at different ages and you can't rush it. Some will be ready for full time Super League at 16, others will have to wait a bit longer.

Amor looks the part now, and I'd like to see him back in the fold for 2012.