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| One of the selling points of the NRL constantly used by those who hold it up as an example to SL is the "intensity" and the fact that "there are no easy games". Clearly not the case.
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| Well I'm enjoying my first taste of the NRL after several seasons away, from a skills on show and entertainment viewpoint.
I know it's a major sport in parts of Australia and they have serious money in comparison to SL and it shows - on the field, how it's officiated, how it's presented to it's audience.
Rugby League is still IMO the greatest game but it's comfortably at it's greatest in the NRL.
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| Quote ="tvoc"Who mentioned blowouts, in a league of sixteen there will be a spread of squad strength, class and form. Two of the three you've pulled out this week feature the Broncos and the Cowboys who so far have continued their form from last season and look like the teams to beat. Every game features players I love to watch but it's also the officiating and attitude at the PTB and the innovations referenced above - the sooner they're adopted in SL the better.'"
The simplest thing we could adopt is 7 tackles for a kick that goes dead in goal. God knows why we don't have that rule. Then start to clean up the PTB area and get them to actually play the ball with the foot, which apparently is still in the rules up here, not that you'd know it.
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| It assisted Leeds no end on many an October night in Manchester (and why not if the law allows) but it overly rewards an unskillfull, game slowing, containing tactic.
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| Quote ="tvoc"It assisted Leeds no end on many an October night in Manchester (and why not if the law allows) but it overly rewards an unskillfull, game slowing, containing tactic.'"
I don't really mind it as much as others seemingly do. Yes I know it's not an entertaining tactic for the spectator but I have no problem appreciating smart tactics and especially if it's coming from the team who is leading then they've earned the right to do that tactic. I don't expect a team in football to bomb towards goal instead of go towards the corner flag in the 90th min when they're winning 1-0 even though I'd like to see another goal.
What I can't stand like many is when we do get a good kick in-goal and the FB/winger is allowed to stick his foot behind the line and pick it up. That rule really does have to go.
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"I don't really mind it as much as others seemingly do. Yes I know it's not an entertaining tactic for the spectator but I have no problem appreciating smart tactics and especially if it's coming from the team who is leading then they've earned the right to do that tactic. I don't expect a team in football to bomb towards goal instead of go towards the corner flag in the 90th min when they're winning 1-0 even though I'd like to see another goal.
What I can't stand like many is when we do get a good kick in-goal and the FB/winger is allowed to stick his foot behind the line and pick it up. That rule really does have to go.'"
Yep agree on both counts.
I'm wary of changes that further complicate an already complicated set of rules and I don't see the big deal over kicks that go dead. If the receiving team don't like it they can position a defender or 2 to stop it. I'm also wary of further forcing play down one particular route, speed. Now who isn't in favour of a quick game but I think we have to be careful we don't further sacrifice other areas of the game for making the game faster still.
As for the rule where you can take a ball dead, that's just daft and I don't know why it was brought in, especially when we have very small in-goal areas in RL anyway.
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| Quote ="Him"
As for the rule where you can take a ball dead, that's just daft and I don't know why it was brought in, especially when we have very small in-goal areas in RL anyway.'"
There is no better example than Fridays kick by Burrow that was absolute class and stopped inches from the dead ball line, but then saw Hull straight on the front foot due to this daft rule when they should have been on the rack. Like you say, a terrible ruling which penalises skill.
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| Quote ="Him"Yep agree on both counts.
I'm wary of changes that further complicate an already complicated set of rules and I don't see the big deal over kicks that go dead. If the receiving team don't like it they can position a defender or 2 to stop it. I'm also wary of further forcing play down one particular route, speed. Now who isn't in favour of a quick game but I think we have to be careful we don't further sacrifice other areas of the game for making the game faster still.
As for the rule where you can take a ball dead, that's just daft and I don't know why it was brought in, especially when we have very small in-goal areas in RL anyway.'"
I think its a very negative tactic - is that really what we want to see in the game. Just deliberately kicking it dead isn't even particularly skillful either. In soccer they removed the ability to simply pass back to the goalie - Liverpool haven't won a championship since IIRC.
I would agree being able to put a foot over the line to make a ball dead is a terrible rule and should be removed from the game.
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"One of the selling points of the NRL constantly used by those who hold it up as an example to SL is the "intensity" and the fact that "there are no easy games". Clearly not the case.'"
The other three games were relatively close or very close and there have been five golden point games already this season. In SL there has been one draw this season and we have played four rounds more. Although, like any league, there are some very good teams and some comparatively poor teams.
The NRL has and always will be the pinnacle of club RL. Look up comments made by Ellery Hanley, Adrian Morley or Gaz Ellis, they'll settle any doubts you may have.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"I think its a very negative tactic - is that really what we want to see in the game. Just deliberately kicking it dead isn't even particularly skillful either. In soccer they removed the ability to simply pass back to the goalie - Liverpool haven't won a championship since IIRC.
I would agree being able to put a foot over the line to make a ball dead is a terrible rule and should be removed from the game.'"
But I think we have to allow some form of negative tactic, you could argue kicking the ball into touch is just as negative. It's just made harder because receiving teams generally drop wingers back to cover the touch lines.
Yep, I think the taking it dead rule is something where the RFL have successfully united the whole sport for once. It's a terrible rule that, to me anyway, smells of someone making up a rule without thinking about it for a few minutes.
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| Quote ="craigizzard"The simplest thing we could adopt is 7 tackles for a kick that goes dead in goal. God knows why we don't have that rule. Then start to clean up the PTB area and get them to actually play the ball with the foot, which apparently is still in the rules up here, not that you'd know it.'"
The rule also says you can "drop" or place the ball at the PTB. [i"Regain feet (b) The tackled player shall without delay regain his feet where he was tackled, lift the ball clear of the ground, face his opponent’s goal line and drop or place the ball on the ground in front of his foremost foot. "
[/i
Yet a drop, or the slightest bobble is always deemed a knock on. The rules as written - place or drop the ball and play with the foot are fine, yet they ignore the heel and penalize a drop. Totally the wrong way around. I don't even know when they started doing this, players generally stood upright and dropped the ball when I started watching the game. It's a bad way to do it and lacks control but it was (and still is according the rules) legal.
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| Quote ="Him"But I think we have to allow some form of negative tactic, you could argue kicking the ball into touch is just as negative. It's just made harder because receiving teams generally drop wingers back to cover the touch lines.
Yep, I think the taking it dead rule is something where the RFL have successfully united the whole sport for once. It's a terrible rule that, to me anyway, smells of someone making up a rule without thinking about it for a few minutes.'"
I think a 40/20 is a real positive play - and kicking into touch especially inside the opponents 20 is a very attacking play as you are putting pressure on the skill set of the opponents inside their danger zone. That is a very different dynamic compared to a 20 metre restart.
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| Quote ="DHM"The rule also says you can "drop" or place the ball at the PTB. [i"Regain feet (b) The tackled player shall without delay regain his feet where he was tackled, lift the ball clear of the ground, face his opponent’s goal line and drop or place the ball on the ground in front of his foremost foot. "
[/i
Yet a drop, or the slightest bobble is always deemed a knock on. The rules as written - place or drop the ball and play with the foot are fine, yet they ignore the heel and penalize a drop. Totally the wrong way around. I don't even know when they started doing this, players generally stood upright and dropped the ball when I started watching the game. It's a bad way to do it and lacks control but it was (and still is according the rules) legal.'"
Doesn't control still come into it though? Otherwise you could never have a drop goal, because the moment the point of the ball contacts the floor it's a knock-on.
If you observed that definition to the letter, you'd have a hundred incorrect play the balls every game simply because the ball is so rarely placed ahead of the foremost foot. Almost always, the foot is in the air and the ball is placed below or behind it rather than in front of it.
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"Doesn't control still come into it though? Otherwise you could never have a drop goal, because the moment the point of the ball contacts the floor it's a knock-on.
If you observed that definition to the letter, you'd have a hundred incorrect play the balls every game simply because the ball is so rarely placed ahead of the foremost foot. Almost always, the foot is in the air and the ball is placed below or behind it rather than in front of it.'"
"Losing possession – intentionally – accidentally 8. A tackled player shall not intentionally part with the ball other than by bringing it into play in the prescribed manner. If, after being tackled, he accidentally loses possession, a scrum shall be formed except after the fifth play-the-ball."
So dropping the ball and then playing it with the foot would be legal. I think this part is more to do with just dropping the ball while getting up, throwing it forward etc. In the actual act of playing the ball you can drop it. What we see is that if the ball parts company with the hand at any point during a PTB then the ref blows for a scrum, but that in itself is not illegal. That's what I am talking about. As he's playing the ball a player is not "accidentally losing possession" he's putting the ball on the ground to play it and the rules say he can drop it if he wants. No mention of controlling that drop.
Agree about placing the ball - that's my other point - we just see it rolled between the legs now rather than heeled. Seems strange refs chose to not follow any of the letter of the law regarding the act of playing the ball other than playing it forward.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"I think its a very negative tactic - is that really what we want to see in the game. Just deliberately kicking it dead isn't even particularly skillful either.'"
It can be a negative tactic if teams are doing it from minute 1. But it can also be a sensible tactic if doing it in the 75th minute with a 1 score lead and tired bodies out there.
If Leeds tried to keep a kick in play in-goal and the opposition winger carried it back and found a gap in the kick chase and went on to score in the last couple of minutes of a GF to win it would you not bemoan Leeds not doing the smart thing of drilling it dead and getting their line organised.
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| The margins between a great kick and a poor one are so narrow in many cases that I'd be loathe to penalise teams for getting it slightly wrong by giving the opposition an extra tackle.
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| I can see why people want rid as they think it would see an increase in kickers landing it in-goal and putting great kicks in.....however I could easily see it going the other way and kickers too concerned with giving a penalty away that they go conservative and try and land their kicks 10m out and playing it safe instead of going aggressive and aiming for the try line.
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"It can be a negative tactic if teams are doing it from minute 1. But it can also be a sensible tactic if doing it in the 75th minute with a 1 score lead and tired bodies out there.
If Leeds tried to keep a kick in play in-goal and the opposition winger carried it back and found a gap in the kick chase and went on to score in the last couple of minutes of a GF to win it would you not bemoan Leeds not doing the smart thing of drilling it dead and getting their line organised.'"
Alternatively you kick into the end goal and get a repeat set - a deal more skill involved in that.
It may be sensible but it is still a negative play - going for a score to kill the game would be a positive play - and yes 2003 and Cardiff!!
Turn it on its head and Leeds needed a last minute try and the opposition simply kicked it dead how would you feel - frustrated?
Let's not forget the game is in the entertainment business - do we really want to see this type of play on a regular basis? I personally don't
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| Balance is about right for me. In the endgame, teams seem to feel they gain more from kicking for touch than they do from kicking dead - even if the kick only covers a handful of metres. And while this too could be construed as a negative play it's been a legit tactic for as long as I've watched RL. A fundamental part of the game, if you will. If kicking dead really is perceived to be spoiling the game, then allow a quicker restart or change it from 20m to 30m. Though to be honest I don't see that it is.
I do not like the new law that allows a defender to kill the play by sticking a foot over the dead ball line before touching what are often very skilful kicks.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Alternatively you kick into the end goal and get a repeat set - a deal more skill involved in that.
It may be sensible but it is still a negative play - going for a score to kill the game would be a positive play - and yes 2003 and Cardiff!!'"
Exactly, kicking for 2 can be both a negative play and a smart play. Should we get rid of the choice to kick for goal when you get a penalty and always make teams go for a try instead just on the basis of entertainment?
Quote ="Sal Paradise"Turn it on its head and Leeds needed a last minute try and the opposition simply kicked it dead how would you feel - frustrated?'"
Not at the rule I wouldn't, that we left ourselves chasing the game yes, but no not the rule.
Quote ="Sal Paradise"Let's not forget the game is in the entertainment business - do we really want to see this type of play on a regular basis? I personally don't'"
I understand the point of it being the entertainment business and people say they wouldn't mind if we lost but play good rugby (although if that happened enough times I think people would grow tired of not get over the winning line) however you've also got to appreciate it from the players and coaches views. It's their jobs and careers and you're a hell of lot less likely to keep your jobs if you aren't winning games.
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| I agree with last point and I understand why players do it, doesn't make for great viewing - these players do this for a living.
There is a world of a difference between taking two points on offer than simply punting the ball dead - skill level for a start and two additional points as a positive externality.
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| The effect the zero tackle restart appears to be having down under is still to reward good skill but not to reward poor skill - result better skill required, therefore skilling up not dumbing down.
Additionally and perhaps more importantly it's encouraging a variety of last tackle plays getting away from the stereotypical high kick for the winger to outjump a defender. They also appear to have slightly different interpretations as to what is required for a defender to diffuse the bomb another welcome rebalancing IMO.
Lots of little but crucial differences between the NRL and SL and one that caught out St Helens in their WCS match V the Roosters. I think it's crazy that we now have seemingly three standards covering the professional sport - International, NRL and SL.
I'd be interested to hear the views of those who watch both as to which comp's take on the rules is raising skill levels. Sorry to say IMO it's not ours.
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| I watched the Panthers/Roosters game this morning and Jamie Soward gave a masterclass in last tackle plays, trapping the Roosters in goal five times in the last ten minutes to deny them the ball and defend a four point lead.
Entertainingly the Panthers also got a differential penalty at a scrum and were told they couldn't kick for goal and Peter Wallace - who's been playing in the NRL for over a decade - said to the ref "differwhat? Never heard of it. Why can't we goal?", so some things are the same in both competitions...
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| Whilst not trying to say the kicking in SL is a match for the NRL. You also can't ignore that they do have bigger in-goals to work with over there. Compare the in-goals between the NRL GF and the ones at Old Trafford that they can only just squeeze on before the slope. Headingley itself must have some of the shortest in-goals in either competition.
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| Yep, the in goals are tiny at Headingley and at many other SL grounds. And Wheldon Road must be about 10m short as a pitch anyway.
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