It's got nothing to do with depth. Our first choice 6 and the bench are not good enough anymore. We have some players who have run out of gas or are not being developed adequately.
I'd be very dissapointed if they are all playing like wet lettuces because they have thrown their teddies out over Buderus's reputed large salary.

Oh........

Step Up the rovers, We need to take these chances and could close the gap

2008: 11 SL Rds + 1 WCC + 1 CC = 28 Players used

As the CC game was V Celtic I'll replace it with the next SL Reg Rd for a more reasonable comparison.

2008: 12 SL Rds + 1 WCC = 26 Players used

2009: 11 SL Rd = 1 WCC + 1 CC = 23 Players used

Could that in part suggest that McClennan has a smaller group of players to work with this season than last?

The league table after 11 SL rounds last season showed Leeds with a four point advantage at the top.

Leeds Played 11, Won 9, Drawn 0, Lost 2, Pts For 326, Pts Agst 116 Pts 18

This season at the same point it's:

Leeds Played 11, Won 7, Drawn 0, Lost 4, Pts For 243, Pts Agst 151 Pts 14

Apart from the obvious regarding the losses, the attack is down 83 points while the defence is up 35 points, that's a fair old decline in 12 months.

The sooner the major prize prize money is awarded to the league leaders the better, if 100k was on the line, these results would not happen, the games a fix, lose to salford & quins at home but still in the mix com october. do you think leeds would be 3 players short all year if this was the case, gary promising a major signing the day before the season tickets go on sale. saints go 4 clear then lose at home to sh*te but hay-ho....still top, how many times does this happen!!!, there is more consistency in WWF. SL becoming a stage managed product. Pick who u want to play in the play offs??? whats all that about?. all we need now is a upturn for celtic, stevo shouting theres a place for SL wales!!! won't be long. watch this space.

Simply really Ellis played right side he has been replaced by Kirke who last night looked like what he is a reasonably good lower rung player certainly not a top line SL player his defence was shambolic - something you could seldom say about Ellis

Scruton has been replaced by Burgess who is pretty inconsistent - not unexpected for a young player - he did not play last night because of a poor performance the previous week - both are impact players Scruton is a far better defender at this point in his career

Graham you will never get Richie to give you a straight answer - when his arguement is defeated - often very easy to do - he will squirm a bit and change the debate if you follow any of his arguements the one he originally starts with is completely different to the one he ends with.

You have to put him on the spot then he has nowhere to go and he will stop posting on that thread simply really.

As I have said before he reminds me of my kids when they are trying to argue - it is childish

It is obvious to everyone that the squad this year is not as strong as last year - Richie arguement is that replacing Ellis/Scruton/Toopi with a younger player doesn't weaken the squad because other players will improve to fill the gap.

This is completely flawed because for every young player coming through you have an older player going backwards e.g. Senior/Peacock/Kylie/Diskin plus you have players who overperform for a couple of years who are unable to maintain that level JJB/Donald.

In all sports teams you need competition for places to bring out the natural competitiveness of players when you have a weaker squad that disappears who is going to replace the players who aren't playing well - Kirke and JJB were both very poor last night and have been for many weeks so who can we bring in to replace them? Burrow's confidence is shot who can we bring in to give him time to get back? Peacock is 30+ and cannot play every week who can we bring in to replace him and still play 4 props?

Perhaps Richie could answer some of the points above expose his opinions for critique rather than the sly way he goes about trying to infuriate others?

This is what I would do for next week

1. Buderus has to start
2. Play Sinfield at 6 and McGuire at 7 as the organiser
3. Play Watkins at left centre and Gibson at right and Senior in the second row
4. Burrow/JJB rested Kirke/Kylie dropped
5. Play Diskin in the 2nd row and bring McShane back in

This whole side needs a shake up and redefining of the structures and the play

For me Ablett has been another disappointment. The early season promise has gone and he's gone backwards in the last 3 games.

Our kicking last night was woeful, and apart from some good play from Buderus, it was another totally flat performance.

Cant we just face facts that the side are totally shat?

i feel a bit sorry for mcguire and burrow.last week, for maybe the only time this season, the pack dominated there opponents. this gave those two room to move and space to play in.
oh for a farrell and fleary. no nonsense players who did there job brilliantly well.

despite the obvious, 2nd row, centre etc, when has a good left wing, become a right wing, was talking 2 an old left winger last night, he agreed he would have struggled on the opposite flank.

I'd actually play:

Webb
Hall
Smith (if not Gibson)
Senior
Donald
Sinfield
Burrow
Leulaui
Buderus
Peacock
JJB
Kirke
Diskin

McGuire
Lauitiiti
Bailey
Burgess

Quote ="rhinoms"More reaction. www.therhinos.co.uk/news/7191.php www.therhinos.co.uk/news/7192.php www.therhinos.co.uk/news/7194.php'" I've never seen a coach look so uncomfortable after a defeat. Normally they are angry, frustrated or praise the opposition with sincerity. BMC just looked worried. He seems very good at getting players up for individual games both with us and NZ, I spoke to another supporter tonight who opined "Is he John Kear with a different accent?"

Quote ="rhinoms"More reaction. www.therhinos.co.uk/news/7191.php www.therhinos.co.uk/news/7192.php www.therhinos.co.uk/news/7194.php'" I've never seen a coach look so uncomfortable after a defeat. Normally they are angry, frustrated or praise the opposition with sincerity. BMC just looked worried. He seems very good at getting players up for individual games both with us and NZ, I spoke to another supporter tonight who opined "Is he John Kear with a different accent?"

Webb, Smith, VACANCY, Senior, Donald, Mcguire, Burrow, Leuleui, Buderus, VACANCY, Peacock, VACANCY, Sinfield.

Subs: Watkins, Diskin, JJB, Lauitiiti,

Taxi Rank: Ablett, Kirke, burgess

The forward pack went missing leaving wingers and centres to do their job for a very large part of the game. I lost count of how many times Peacock and Bailey stood watching Donald, Hall, Burrow and McGuire take the ball up. There was absolutly no second phase of attack and the kicking game was pathetic to say the least. Not once were their fullback and winger split by a kick. The one out tacticks were clearly not working but nothing was done to change it. Both coach and players should be embarrased.

100% agree

after his display last week i expected him to start last night

erm, dont you remember what we won last year?

Living in the past is a real top quality Leeds supporter trait and you seem to fulfill it well, I have said it before and I will say it again, the Coach and his psychofant staff are clueless, totally and utterly clueless.

The team again has been allowed to go backwards due to not having any long term plan, the lack of replacements for Toopi, Scruton and Ellis show gross incompetence, the perseverance with youngsters ala Watkins when clearly not ready is damaging the kid.

And then we have the reserve side? I have seen them twice this season and they look absolutely clueless but hey having the tactical genius that is Wille Poching is really the way forward.

You see that may be the crux of the problem, Leeds are doing it on the cheap and even insulting Leeds supporters intelligence by increasing price for a substandard product.

if you dont like it, jog on, NO ONE is telling you to support them

Funny, coming from you. All I did was ask a couple of questions of Tad that he was entirely unwilling to answer. The argument from me never changed - I copied and pasted the same questions, so how could it?

All I did was point out that Tad's suggestion that a couple of players hadn't been replaced was a ridiculous idea.
At no point did I ever claim that their replacements were as good or better, or comment on the strength of the squad.
If Tad had been a bit calmer, he would have been able to read that.

The argumnets we would have got onto if Tad had been able to answer would have been:
Is it right to replace leavers with new signings or should we develop players?
Is having more players the answer to the problems? The point there, clearly, is that it isn't as if Salford and Harlequins are better talented than our squad.

Correctamundo, leeds win things and GH gets comfy rather than build on it.

You aren't the brightest on here are you Loz?

I will always support them, I always have but as you so intelligently put, that doesn't give me the right to an opinion.

Fair enough.

why build on something which has proven track record?

He made a signing which beyond his control didnt happen

Brilliant Loz, stand still, thats the spirit!!

In fairness it was obvious that Tad meant "not replaced" as in the way you describe it - not replaced with equal or better quality. I actually didn't get what you were attempting last night, I don't think anyone would be daft enough to suggest that we physically don't have the same number of human beings in the squad as we had last year.