Given the season Watkins just had, in which he played in virtually every game for at times the worst team in SL, it was always going to be a big ask for him to pull up trees in the Four Nations.

Fair enough, he's an individual, and should have been able to perform at this level, but he's hardly been able to develop much as a player in the last 12 months under the circumstances. He's simply become unused to playing in a well-functioning team (comparing England to Leeds!). The same applies to Hall, who looked pretty flat by his standards in the games I saw.

I don't think either Watkins or Hall let themselves down badly in the Four Nations, but they should have been able to offer a lot more. Perhaps a better season for Leeds in 2017 will provide a better platform for Watkins in the World Cup? He's still in a better position than any other English centre that I know of.

I don't particularly get worked up over us losing. There is a gap but I don't think it's as big as some people do.

What annoys me is the way that we lose. With a whimper. We need much, much more aggression in my opinion. If that boils over occasionally and we end up with a man in the sin bin then meh I don't really care. I think if we just sit back and try and outplay we're going to struggle. I think we need to get stuck in and tvvat em. Try and put them off their game in a way that Wigan have done to Leeds a few times recently.

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agreed mate. we are not a million miles away.too much respect summed up by the the desperate scrap for swapping jerseys after the game, although that doesn't bother me. we can beat the kiwis, we should have beaten them first up playing average by tue way,so why do we struggle so much with the Aussies? we need to find the formula the kiwis found in 2005 and maybe we can finally overcome that aura!

Ah, the final stage of introspection finally arrived at after the latest international humiliation.

<applies blinkers>

We aren't that far behind, honest!



We can beat the Aussies.

We can and do beat the Kiwis (at home, anyway).

It's all good.

When does SL kick off?

we are of course all suckers...

one more round?

I personally don't think we're as Far off the Australians. They were nothing particularly special this tournament.what they are light years ahead of us in is basic rugby skills, passing from dummy half and along the line the ball goes where it's supposed. To our basic rugby skills are terrible and until they improve we stand little chance of beating them

Back in topic I don't think watkins had a terrible tournament but also don't think he should necessarily been in the squad to sta with.

I don't know if it's the passing per se that's better. One thing I've noticed with the Aussies in this 4 Nations and during the WCC back in Feb, when they attack the entire line moves on both sides of the field. Every single player is exactly where they need to be and ready to be an option. There's not 2 or 3 of them stood out the back having a rest, they're all an option and they all move forward with the ball carrier ready to receive.
Obviously Thurston is top class but it doesn't half make your job easier when you've got 3 or 4 passing options who are moving and running the right lines virtually every play.

I believe that their accuracy of passing is phenomenal, as an example not to single him out but watkins at dummy half the ball was up by receiving players shoulders a lot of the time, causing a moments hesitation which killed momentum. The occasional time it's not so bad but when it's persistent it's having huge effect.

Look to super league and the amount of times where players are having to readjust to gather the ball on a regular drilled play it's inexcusable that professional elite athletes can barely put a good pass in.

This could be down to training or composure I don't know

One thing I may get shot down for saying is that maybe we lacked a player like hock, the Australians hated playing against him they were to a degree scared of him.n his aggression, it could have been worth a punt on throwing him on for ten fifteen minutes to cause some mayhem!!!

He was anonymous again last night.

No s**t sherlock! Only been mentioned on here a million times over the last 24hrs but thanks for pointing it out anyway, very observant of you

what centre could shine with this shower of ? no quick ball, no quality ball, nobody putting him through gaps, no dummy runners.

Well Moon did his best last night and usually out performs Watkins and Keinhorst when playing at runs better lines and with more urgency than Watkins who looks lazy and lacks urgency and zip and rarely goes looking for the ball or runs good lines at pace. When he does he looks top class as he has great feet and balance but so rsrely displays it. He wasn't alone last night of course and wasn't helped by the defensive weakness of Handley outside him.

More and more Kallum Watkins looks like Kevin Iro.

All the ability in the world but too laid back to put it to its full potential. That said Leeds currently have absolutely no idea how to use him.

I'm not even sure he has that much ability tbh. I can't remember the last time he did anything of note against a good side.

At least Iro could produce something, when he could be bothered.

I think moving Watkins to 1 might be an idea. Give him some space to work in and hopefully less defending to do.

Moon and Jimmy in centres.

Just a thought.

To be fair to Watkins he is a massive victim of our playing style and lack of creativity. He would look a different player playing for Cas,Wire or Wigan.Just look what the change has done for Hardaker.Who could blame Watkins really if he was slapping in a transfer request sometime soon?

That's what worries me the longer this goes on,especially the coaching.

If we lost players like Watkins,Lilley and Ward to other teams and then Mags,Burrow etc etc retire we will be building for years to come. Zak is already a huge loss, I know he had personal reasons but look at his improvement already.
You couldn't blame the younger lads for thinking "that could be me" when every week is a lucky narrow win or a bad loss and the possibility of relegation fight two years running.

Lilley is not happy I heard yesterday, apparently he is being told to play to a certain style that is not his normal game and he's not happy about it.

Hope the kid gets to showcase his skills sooner rather than later, or it might not be in a Leeds shirt.

Whilst he has been far from his best its criminal how he Moon & our Wingers are used.
This is purely Coaching structures imo its the same with Cuthbo they getting used to do too much donkey work.

Kevin Iro ought to regard such a comparison as a personal insult.

For that effort on Shenton alone, Watkins should be dropped.

But he won't be dropped and he knows it... hence his CBA attitude.

I'm pretty sure that I saw similar half d efforts from Iro at most of his clubs over the years. The comparison is of course more about attacking prowess and effort rather than individual examples but the point still stands.

To be fair to Watkins Iro wasnt asked to make 30 tackles defending as a 2nd rower and didnt really cart ball up middle like Kallum is asked to do.

We are totally wasting a very talented player.

...and have been for a good few seasons now. Looking at how Hardaker has become the great all round FB now he can pass in the Cas team; can you imagine how the Leeds threequarters especially Watkins would go in the same team. Phew!

It makes me laugh a bit how people go up a notch in peoples opinions. Zak was a good player for Leeds and did a great job for Leeds in attack and defence. He won many trophies including a man of steel. Lets not pretend hes suddenly become a great player.

In my honest opinion Leeds made the right decision in moving Zak on for both Leeds and Zak. Enough was enough with Zak.

James Lowes was similar in that a month after leaving for Bulls he too became hooker but was a good player with Leeds.

I wish he'd been put that kind of effort in during his time at Leeds. Had the potential to win Man of Steel at one point, IMO.