Comparing Smith's Leeds spell with his Warrington spell is tricky with regards to the team that was built during his time.

Hetherington will have played a significant part in the recruitment and we probably would've signed most of the players we did regardless of who was the coach. At Wire I believe he has pretty much full say on who joins and Simon Moran simply deals with the cheque book side of things.

I would say If you tried forming a combined team of academy graduates who played a significant amount of games and became REGULARS during HIS TIME there then it wouldn't make that impressive a reading and he's had 10 years combined at two very big clubs.

If you made a combined team of signings made during his time there then it would look very impressive but how much is that down to Hetherington's infulence at Leeds and Moran's chequebook at Warrington?

What will be interesting to see at Warrington is how they cope now with the immediate departure of Higham to Leigh. During his time at Warrington, their strength over over top teams has consistently been having two top hookers. Higham and Monaghan, and now Clark with the former until his departure this week. Clark no doubt obviously a great player but hasn't quite hit the notes there and if he was to get injured then they're really screwed and it impacts the performance of some other key players for them like Hill and Westwood by the lost at hooker they've experienced.

Smith is massive on the technical side for sure but where he really turned Leeds around was on the psychological side - Leeds was a losing club with a losing mentality and he made them winners. That is the difference between a good coach and a great one.

Instead of thinking about theoretical combined teams of this and that make a list of the trophies he has won.

There's a lot on that list.

An excellent coach.

Reality is though, 6 seasons in charge at Warrington and no GF win to show for the teams they assembled is a disappointing return no matter how you look at it. If it wasn't Smith at Warrington and another coach so their was no emotional connection to his time at Leeds would you say no GF win was acceptable.....I doubt it.

At Leeds, yes the first year and a half were excellent at a time both Saints and Wigan had issues. Once Saints got their act together we fell massively behind them but managed to do them on one night in his last game.

Yes he's won trophies but he had teams that could do that, but those teams also lost a fair few, make a list of those....

Leeds

CCF - 2005
GF - 2005
CCsf - 2006 against a inexperienced in big games Hudds
Playoffs 2006 - similar vs Wire

Warrington

playoffs - 2011
Gf - 2012
Gf - 2013
CCsf - 2013 against an average Hull side
CCsf - 2014 against leeds could barely complete a set in the first half.

Considering that Wire's CC runs weren't the most toughest along the way then some context should be taken there. They beat Leeds twice in the final, but hell even Hull beat us in a final and we had to carefully tip-toe past Castleford to win it. Their other win against big game failure Huddersfield.

For the teams he had under his control he hasn't won as much as he should have done by a long chalk.

To go from LLS in 2011 with scoring over a thousand points to a very average W/L record in 2015 and a real fight to make the top 4 on their hands.....that's real backwards progress and one that wouldn't be tolerated by people on this board if it happened at Leeds.

Also it should be pointed out that the point of the thread was about Smith's teams in terms of recruitment/juniors under him because obviously a Wire fan is wondering how they'll move forward forward in terms of squad building.

Not whether he is a good coach so completely missing the point.

Yes, the poster focusing on how many trophies a coach wins is "missing the point".

How many GF wins did they have before Smith? How many CC wins?

If failing to win a GF is unacceptable then almost every coach every year is unacceptable.

I think the point he is making is a big club, i.e. Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Warrington. Look at the money Warrington have spent since Smith went there. Is a big club not winning a GF in 6 years acceptable? So not really a case of almost every coach.

My opinion of Smith at Wire is that he could have done better.

He has taken a team that was spending close to full cap and struggling to one which is competing for and winning trophies, though the pots seem to have dried up a bit recently.

Since 2010 (when Leeds gave up their stranglhold on the SL title) the sequence has been

WIG
LEE
LEE
WIG
STH

The SL title has been shared around the big teams, with no-one being dominant. However, Wire have always fallen short in the play-offs.

A former poster may describe them as flattrack bullies, who play open expansive rugby when there is little pressure or opposition is weak, but when the level gets upped, they can't quite find that extra 1% needed to win the GF.

That culture I feel is down to the coach, and is something we did show ourselves in the time he was in charge.

And yet Warrington have found themselves very capable of winning big games in the Challenge Cup under Smith.

Yes he is if he reads the opening post and sees what is actually being asked.....it isn't whether or not Smith is a good coach or how many trophies he's won btw.

No they aren't because different teams have different expectations. Reality is during Smith's years at Wire there has been only really 4 teams realistically good enough to win the GF (Wire, Leeds, Saints, Wigan)......only one of those teams haven't won it during his spell in charge.

And no Warrington didn't reach any SL GF's before he came, but how many of those seasons did they have a team thought of as good enough to reach Old Trafford?

Looking at the teams they had to play to win the trophy they were never given a hard route to the final

2009 (SL pos)
York
Fev
Hull KR (4)
Wigan (6)
Hudds (3)

2010
Fev
Hudds (5)
Bradford (10)
Catalans (14)
Leeds (4)

2012
Keighley
Bradford (9)
Catalans (4)
Hudds (7)
Leeds (5)

Leeds are the only team with any recent cup pedigree that they faced.

Cup wins are good and certainly better than a trophy-less season, but they are not the mark of a top team.

So in 2012, they beat four of the best other 8 sides in SL to win the trophy?

I'd say that's a pretty good Cup run, about as difficult as you're going to get given other top teams are likely to draw each other.

Likewise 2009, with three of the other top six sides in the competition.

Meh in 2012 against Hudds in the semi. Hudds went in having lost 7 of their last 8 league games since Brown announced his departure at the end of the year and they were abysmal at that point in time. Bradford at home, you'd fancy any of the big 4 to win that comfortably.

They beat Wigan in 2009, but that was the Brian Noble Wigan. Not the Maguire/Wane Wigan, big difference.

I saw him at Slam Dunk music festival in Leeds yesterday, which might provide further ammunition to some, depending on your views of him. Either that, or he has a Yorkshire-based double who is also sporting a year-round tan...

..and yet on the previous page there is one of your usual long winded posts that is purely dedicated to whether Smith is a good coach or not that doesn't deal with the original question.

Threads drift, often due to your contribution.

Deal with it.

Really? Show us what post I made originally before you chipped in with your defence of Smith that wasn't me talking about squad building/make-up issues regarding Smirh?

What exactly was I defending Smith against? I made a post lauding his abilities as a coach. You responded with the post below. Therefore you were as guilty as I of thread drift. You then waffle on complaining about thread drift.

Why don't you quote my first post of the thread? You know the one that was actually about the issue being discussed about squad development and what not? The one you could only reply to with a "......but, but, but......look at his trophies, he's great"

Then I offered the reply you just posted above in response to you stubborn refusal to comment on the issue being discussed. It's noted that after several post you've yet to be able to offer any support to Smith in terms of squad development even though that's the topic we were trying to discuss until you tried derailing with "but he's won X amount of titles"

I went on thread drift. So did you.

I'll quote what I won't and post what I want. You don't have to reply but I certainly don't have to stick to whatever topic or content you want to discuss.

In terms of squad development Smith has developed several squads over the years that have gone on to win trophies. That's an important development.

I think it’s hard to compare the Smith era at Leeds with that at Wire since Smith inherited a once in a generation group of young players at Leeds in the likes of Sinfield/McGuire/Burrow etc. The squad at Warrington wasn’t at the same level when he arrived there and it takes years for a youth system to bear fruit – even then getting 6 or 7 top players through in one go is extremely rare.

He’s had to work with existing players at Warrington and buy others. That’s always going to have mixed results. Considering his success in the cup and generally making Warrington much better than under Cullen he’s done a good job.

Whilst I agree in general, despite beating Leeds twice, I think they have underperformed in their other games where they have 6 wins and 7 losses and their +66 points difference is boosted by an 80-0 win against Wakefield.

Warrington are fifth, with three fewer wins than Leeds. When the top eight format starts Leeds will be playing them again and perhaps in the playoffs and or the cup.

I'm more worried about Smith's game plan against us this year than I am his other inconsistent results. They are still likely to have a big say in where the silver wear goes.,

in 4 years McDermott has won two grand finals and a challenge cup is he the better coach?