Thurston and Cronk and Foran are about as quick as Lilly, nothing to worry about imo

If Sinfield had played and been as successful at the highest level ie, NRL and internationally you may have had a point.

One of the finest players in the SL era and competition but the standard is not comparable to the NRL. At international level even his biggest fans can say he was a huge success such as Peacock

Those three players have a huge skill set to compensate - Lilley is playing in an inferior competition which will help but to compare him to Thurston/Cronk etc is stretching a point.

I agree, he had his moments but not enough to regard him a success on the International stage unfortunately.

He was playing during an era of pretty poor England/GB sides though (2007-2012 we were particularly bad as a group imo), who were up against at times fantastic Aussie teams with the Queensland spine in their pomp, just something i think should be taken into consideration.Put Sinfield in that Aussie team i have no doubt he would have shone but he just didn't have the players around him, and Sinfield's game isn't built around virtuoso individualism. I also thought he was pretty good during his swansong the 2013 WC (last play aside) when we had a capable team who could get on the front foot which highlights what he may have been able to produce in years past had he had the personnel around him. All, if's buts and maybe's i know but things that need to be considered imo.

Kev won the golden boot. The man is legit. The best ever.

Thurstons breakout year was when he was 23, so was Cronks, lets see what Lilly's skill set is then, or is he already written off in your eyes?

Regaurding Sinfield, its a bit stupid to say you cant rate him as an all time great because he didnt play in the NRL, was Stacey Jones not a great because he never played origin?
Like I said previously, there is noone who has had a particualry good international career for England as the team was poorly coached and players were pushed in and out and into different positions
the fact he has caps at 6, 7, 9. 12, and 13 shows that
Yet, he still managed to captain his country, get a decent amount of caps, and become England highest EVER points scorer so it wasnt too shabby eh?

I said Sutty did not criticise Lilley. You said:

[iAndy Gilder wrote:
If you can point out where I criticised Lilley - other than for that one piece of decision making, an opinion shared by his half back partner at the touchscreen after the game by the way - I'd be grateful.[/i

You did criticise Lilley and stated your opinion was shared by his half back partner at the touchscreen- just to support your opinion. You now have U-turned and agree with me that Sutty was not making a criticism of Lilley. In fact I took it to be a self-effacing comment, meaning he (like you) wouldn't have spotted the kicking option that Lilley took.

Having watched other players at the touchscreen including Thurston the other week, it is fair comment to say that Sutcliffe came over well below the standard set by the others. Now this may have been due to nerves or not as the case maybe but his comment shows the option he would have taken which has been rather like his play to date just moving the ball on with little variety. So my comment is valid.




I have watched it back several times to check my opinion before posting. If you care to go through the whole sequence pausing second by second you will see that the defender inside McGillvray is standing legs apart and able to tackle Keinhorst right up until Lilley actually kicks the ball. So as I said it was the actual kick that engaged the defender and made it a 2 on 1 creating the space for Keinhorst to touch down.

You had stated there was a 3 on 2 which there never was. Glad to see you now agree with me that Lilley created a 2 on 1 by his run and kick.




Creative players have to make split second decisions to open up defenses which sometimes do not come off. What Lilley did shows a good rugby brain who used the decoy runner to continue a diagonal run to create options. The first option could have been to dummy and try and score himself but he did not have the pace and in any case the sliding defender had appeared outside our blocker and it was at that stage 3 on 3. (4.08 on the video highlights) So Lilley's choice was reduced to a pass or a kick. As it was 3 on 3 Lilley chose the kick which as he did it drew the middle defender of the 3 leaving space for Keinhorst to score.

You say the easy option was to pass, which is what Sutty would have done. But if you go through frame by frame you will see that the defender was only drawn as Lilley made the kick. Had the defender been drawn enough for Lilley to make a pass then the defender would have blocked the space for the kick.

So I maintain Lilley made the correct split second brave decision which is what I expect from a good half back and why despite his lack of pace he has some class.

And black is once again white. I'll leave it there. Life's too short to try and sustain any kind of discussion with some people.

You made a critical comment of Lilley that I challenged. I have provided the evidence which shows your critical opinion of Lilley to be harsh or even wrong on this occasion. Sorry you only prefer to sustain discussions with those that agree with you. I will leave it for others to check out the video.

With all this talk of the speed of half backs, does anybody actually have any timings of the current crop over a distance compared to the likes of Burrow and Mcguire ten years ago? A significant difference may be that the relative speed of other players has increased more than the backs. Most people acknowledge the pace of the game has increased across the park so to keep the same speed difference between backs and forwards would not be possible.

When Mcguire and Burrow first made their appearances, they were still playing against other players who will have started their careers who started as semi-pros with other occupations and even much more recently (and still probably going on) we have seen full time players become full time profesionals. I would be supprised if there were more than a handful of players now who havent come up through the ranks who have had to take on other jobs to make ends meet.

Over the years backs have got relatively slower or others have got relatively faster and the game has once again reached a point where all half-backs can no longer rely on speed as much as they have previously been able to do and over the next five years we will see another shift in the way the game is played.

I accept that pace is not the only attribute but it helps make up for other shortcomings eg for Burrow. At the age of 16 Sinfield clearly had so many other qualities that in the English game more than made up for any lack of pace. I've yet to see Lilley exhibit those same qualities. But he could develop those in time.
I hope he does.
Sinfield also had the size to stand up to bigger players something that Lilley given his stature can't possess.

Sutcliffe is only 21. Most HBs are illegible until their mid-20s. Thurston could only grunt at that age. Give the kid some time, I can't believe the criticism of his diction on here from keyboard warriors. He'll sound like Stephen Fry after a couple of seasons. If you know what I mean.

I was not being critical of his written word or his diction. When the likes of teenagers like Lilley and Golding have been interviewed on TV they have come over as alert, quick and bright. I did not see this from Sutty at the touchscreen as Jon Wells had to work hard to get anything from him.

FFS! Really? You're critical of how a young rugby league player comes across on TV?

On a different topic, I was particularly upset at how Handley's shorts didn't seem to fit him snugly enough.

Also, why oh why don't our players wear those super pink boots?

Sinfield had one good game against the Aussies at hooker in 2001. I think the Aussies had just got off the plane after cancelling the tour a few weeks prior? Mike Forshaw was scrum half IIRC... says it all really.


Sinfield has never been international class. You know that deep down even if it is difficult to acknowledge because in doing so, it is seen as disrespectful to a Rhinos legend playing at the level of Super League.

We've had poor international sides for as long as I can recall but at least some of our players have made an international impact... Schofield, Hanley, Graham, Burgess, Sculthorpe, Fielden (until he was chinned by Mason), etc.

Presenting the bloke with a Golden Boot for skippering England to a series win against Wales and France was embarrassing at worst and a joke at best. Some proprietor of League and Union magazines wished to flog a few thousand more of his stock.

When that critical moment arrived with just a few minutes to go in a World Cup semi final at Wembley, Sinfield as skipper, organiser and tactical kicker bottled it. He couldn't handle the pressure. And I'm not talking about gifting Shaun Johnson an opportunity for a skip and a jink to the try line either. It's was Sinfield's brainfart prior to that which created the conditions and circumstances for the defeat.

The two that offered a real insight were Trent Robinson and Grant Millington. The detail from both was eye-opening.

It would be great to see the Leeds coach in that situation.

I feel i can talk without my Blue and amber glasses on, and most of what you have written i actually agree with believe it or not. I did say at the start on the whole his international career was a let down.However, He was MOM in a game vs a NZ side who were World Champions at the time in a tri nations a few years back and held his own in several other games if not excelling . How many times too has he been the scape goat when the England side has been battered off the park up front by the Aussie pack and ripped to threads on the fringes, in teams constantly on the back foot? if England would have have had a Lockyer or Thurston in those sides instead of Sinfield would the scoreline have been so much different? i dont think so personally. The sides Schofield and Hanley played in between 88-95 were the best squads GB have had since the early 70s when we could actually beat the Aussies in series and WC's so i don't agree they played in poor teams and they are the only real play makers you would say have made a real mark in the past 40 years , i would maybe at a push stick Andy Gregory in there but that is it.

The Golden Boot, well all i will say is i think he deserved it as much as Farell did in 2004, make of that what you will.

What an odd comment to make re Sutcliffe's play. It was only last week in Perpignan where two short attacking kicks in to the in-goal led to two Leeds tries. The second a virtual carbon copy of the one Lilley put in V Huddersfield.

It was Sutcliffe who said he would have passed!

Yes it showed just how much thought and detail goes into a top coaches game plan. Pity the players cannot always stick to it. Even the Cowboys the other week had a coach cum water boy on the field for a lot of time passing on instructions.

Can't recall what Sutcliffe said precisely at the screen but your comment above was that Sutcliffe is just moving the ball along with little variation - and that seems an odd observation to make when in the previous game he showed some variety when he created the opportunity for two Leeds tries through little kicks into the in-goal just as Lilley did for one on Friday.

Lilley has some talent - he lacks pace as did Sinfield - does he have the core skill set to combat that - in SL possibly.

Thurston played origin when he was 23 he had already played 50 NRL games by that point.

Stacey Jones made his name in the NRL - how can you say someone is an all time great when they are playing a lesser quality competition. Winning lots of caps in a sub standard side doesn't make you a great player neither does being the captain of a poor side. Peter Lorimer won loads of caps for Scotland did that make him a great player?

Sinfield has been a great SL player but to suggest his is in the class of Lockyer, Johns, Smith etc is unrealistic.

I missed the Catalan game as I was at Alicante airport at the time but what you describe is the exception rather than the rule so far this season IMO

Another clearly troll post


One aussie commentator even said when he won the golden boot that if he was born in Aus he would have been Aus captain (believe it was Vossy)
He got stepped by Shawn Johnson and only rushed up because there was an overlap outside that he was trying to shut down, it would have been a try anyway
Did GI, Greg Bird, Cooper Cronk, and Gallen all bottle it when they got stepped by him at the 4 nations? (with no overlap outside btw)
The circumstances were not his fault but instead a George Burgess penalty, I dont even know what your hinting at
You fail to mention in the same game that he had a try assist and 3 line break assists
Putting all his international career down to that moment is ridiculous, has Slater had a poor international career because he cost his team a world cup?
Why dont you go back to comenting FAKE on youtube videos ey?

The year Thurston played origin was his first at 7, before then he played off the bench (usually at hooker) so 23 was definatley his breakout year

Im not suggest he was as good as Lockyer or Johns as that would be stupid, they were 2/4 most skilled players of the last 20 years (along with Thurston and Fittler)
However I have always maintained he is comparable to Simth, as both are players who are mainly lauded for their leadership and ability to run games, you will not be able to convince me otherwise on that front

Your opinion of him because he only played SL is comparable to the Aussie media not acknowledging that Shawn Johnson is clearly the second best 7 (instead talking about Cronk and Evens and Hunt) just because he is from NZ, its just close minded and trying to stick religiously to a false narrative

I would put it to you that BOD was a world great in union but he never played in the (obviously superior) Super Rugby, nor did he ever do particularly well against the Southern Hemisphere teams