You ignore the errors typically balanced approached nantwich shame you don't have the same positive attitude to other players!!

So I take it that the points you are not addressing are because you now agree with me on these points!

It will never make sense to put 'per game' stats ahead of 'per carry' stats if you are studying the individual skills aspect of a player. If one player has more opportunities with the ball than another player in a game this has to be taken into consideration. I do not have the number of games played for all the other fullbacks otherwise I would have included these stats too



I didn't pick players especially - I just recorded all those classed as full backs and there are enough of them who were regular fullbacks to prove my point.



It maybe a weird point to those who choose to see Hardaker in the 'Kings new clothes' but the discussion was about Hardaker's lack of passing, kicking and I would add decision making skills and if he had the right skill-set to make a 6.



The stats are available for all to see on the SL website. In my previous post I have converted them to averages to prove my point about Hardakers lack of attacking skills when compared to other FBs in SL.

I note above you choose to publish season figures for just Hardaker and Russell. Why not others? But seeing how you mentioned it lets see how Zak compares?

eg1 Escare made 284 carries, scored 27 tries and made 16 try assists, also compared to Hardaker he made 17 more tackles, one less tackle bust, more than double the clean breaks and more than a metre average metre gain at 9.24m

eg2: Hanbury made 340 carries, scored 15 tries, made 17 try assists and also more than double the clean breaks of Hardaker and a better average m/c gain

eg3 Eden made 340 carries, scored 11 tries, made 19 try assists, and more than double the clean breaks of Hardaker.

eg4: Shaul made 358 carries, scored 16 tries, and 40% more clean breaks and better average m/c gain

eg5: Bowen made 285 carries, scored 11 tries made 1 less try assist but 60% more clean breaks and a better average m/c

eg6: Wellans made 235 carries, scored 12 tries, made 15 try assists, made 182 more tackles, more clean breaks ( not sure how many games he played at FB)

eg7: Dorn made 196 carries, scored 16 tries, 7 fewer try assists, but almost double the clean breaks and bit better m/c average




Not sure of the point you are making here?




Take a look at the above figures and you will see there is quite a choice who would appear to have better all round attacking credentials in what most coaches see as an attacking position.

I have never put forward Russell as better or worse than Hardaker

I would remind you of my original point which was:
"Most of the other FBs in SL have better try scoring, try assist and clean break averages which is one of the reasons Leeds were below par on attack last season. Sure Hardaker returns the ball strongly but not cleverly enough IMO. It is what you do with the ball that counts"

I think I have provided sufficient back up information to prove my point.

If you look at my last post you will see I have also used the total stats for the season which confirms the same message given in the stats per carry which is that Zak lags behind several other fullbacks when total attacking performances figures and average per carry figures are compared in the three key attacking areas of try scoring, creating tries for others and making clean breaks. That does not make him a bad full back but it does show that he has a lot of improvement to make just to get on an attacking par with several other fullbacks.

Of course he has the time to improve and develop his game and I hope he does.

per carry stats are laughable and i cant be d to even argue over it

you tried to compare Zaks attacking stats to those of a substitute hooker without even noticing LOL
tell me again how we cant compare full-backs stats per game because they all play different minutes?


i didnt put stats other than Hardakers and Russells because they were the ones with a comparable number of carries?


so which 3 or 4 players did you agree were at least as good or better than Hardaker?
or just dodge the question again i guess

If RL was played on a laptop, Football Manager style, then stats would be paramount. It's not. There's more to a performance than the measurables.

That said, have you got any stats on errors, out of interest Juan? Say maybe security under the high ball, or kicks taken on the full? Areas where Hardaker is particularly strong and I would guess he'll compare very favourably to other full backs in the competition. Or are we just selectively using stats that support your point of view again?

You questioned whether he could play well against the better teams like Wigan, Saints and Catalans. I showed he has done.....pretty straight forward.

I think Juan is still a bit bitter because he was the only one who thought BJB should've been FB ahead of Hardaker.

No I asked about his stats in the second half of the season against the better sides as you well knew

You were selective in only choosing the poorer sides as proof of how good he had been in the second half. Your decision to use stats from earlier in the season were because the stats at the back end against the better sides weren't so hot? Nothing wrong with that it what everyone does on here - my point was JC was criticised for using the exact same tactic as you but your use of the tactic was overlooked.

Just like everyone else on here!! What it does show for me that he isn't the finished article and the stats suggest he isn't quite as far ahead of his peer group as some on here would suggest.

He's not the finished article attacking wise but I wouldn't swop him for any other SL fullback

Just reading through the 'stat' posts and realise that these cold stats prove absolutely nothing without factoring in a couple of variables.

What would the FB stats look like on a 'per game' basis when we take into account that Wellens didn't play the entire season at FB and Zak was sat on the sidelines for a significant chunk of the season?

No you questioned whether he could perform against the better sides because he didn't play well in those final few games against Wigan, Saints and Catalans asked.....



I just highlighted that whilst he didn't perform well in those last few games, he can and has performed against those sides.

If you "can't be d" why get into an argument?

The SL do not find per carry stats laughable. They publish them to show the average metre gain in the official SL stats. Take a look some time. And they are used by coaches to assess peformance.



Oh yeah? But didn't you just say that comparing the number of carries was "laughable"


I can guess why you didn't also record the other stats! So I will supply the stats you chose to omit it:-

Hardaker made 3254 metres with an average gain of 8.14 with 103 tackle busts, 30 errors, 21 offloads and 4 penalties
Russell made 3548 metres with an average gain of 9.28 with 107 tackle busts, 21 errors, 28 offloads and 1 penalty

Moving back to the original discussion regarding attacking abilities of SL fullbacks I checked the list for you using your chosen stats method and it clearly shows 7 other fullbacks were better in the three key attacking stats on the SL site: ie; at try scoring, try assists and clean breaks. Laugh that one off



Difficult to pick just 3 or 4 out of the list of 7

Perhaps if you were able to use some stats to back up your claims then you would be more credible eh rhinoms

Coaches and managers make great used of their laptops.

With regard to errors the SL stats record 11 full backs with a lower error count than Hardaker and 3 with a higher error count.

I fully agree with Zak's excellent capabilities under the high ball and but this discussion was not about defense

Please do try though, we're all dying to know.

when did anyone ask who was ahead of Harkdaker in those 3 stats averages?
i asked who the 3 or 4 full back backs are who are at least as good as Hardaker.

It's 7 now apparently



Escare, Hanbury, Eden, Shaul, Bowen, Wellens and the almighty Luke Dorn

greg eden must be better as he plays for brisbane broncos,and he's the new billy slater

also, if anyone wants to play a game:

ive decided that wingers can be boiled down to their abilities via 3 main stats (tries, clean breaks & metres per carry) given that their job is to score tries and sometimes help a team out of their 20

Player A: a try every 14.55 carries; a clean break every 11.19 carries; 9.01 metres per carry
Player B: a try every 16.18 carries; a clean break every 12.95 carries; 9.08 metres per carry
Player C: a try every 26.43 carries; a clean break every 23.5 carries; 7.54 metres per carry

anyone want to guess which one is easily England's first choice winger, is in the Super League Dream Team, and was included in the World XIII (even though i can see from his stats he's a fat sack of crap)?

I wouldn't call Tommy Makinson fat or crap

I was just looking at wingers myself. Going by tries per carry then Richard Owen, Gene Ormsby, Francis Meli and Omari Caro are all superior wingers compared to Ryan Hall. Omari Caro almost 3 times the finisher that Ryan Hall is

i think that you have fully illustrated just how important stats are in regards to which players are better than others with this post

imo stats can be very useful but they clearly don't always reveal the whole truth and i'm pretty sure that team coaches (and in any sport)that are worth their salt, wouldn't pick their teams based on them alone

i'd much rather watch the game and then judge who i think is the better player rather that rely on stats

Ok here is another game

Team A: score a try every 34.57 carries, and a try assist every 42.79 carries, make a clean break every 27.05 carries with a m/c average of 7.04
Team B: score a try every 45.02 carries, and a try assist every 53.25 carries, make a clean break every 33.16 carries with a m/c average of 6.86
Team C: score a try every 56.41 carries, and a try assist every 69.69 carries, make a clean break every 38.75 carries with a m/c average of 6.39

Anyone want to guess which team finished 1st, which team finished last and for a bonus point in what place did team B finish.?