Why do some folk believe that because Wakefield were a founder club of the Northern Union they have some God given right to exist in the top flight today?

The pure and simple fact is that SL Rugby just isn’t that attractive enough in Wakefield to sustain a viable business in today’s economic climate. The bottom line of their P&L shows that.

I’m really not bothered if Wakefield lose their franchise, they tried SL – it didn’t work, so time to move aside and let another club give it a bash. Maybe one day they will rebuild their status enough to be worthy of a franchise but as it stands today they are simply an embarrassment to have in Super League.

losing the franchise may be a good thing. it will give them time to sort there finances out, sort a new ground out and get back on a stable footing.

If the answer to the original question is no will there only be six games in cardiff and will cas get a 'bye'?

It will be sad to see Wakefield leave SL but IMO it would be a good thing for them if they leave SL.

A fresh start to sort out all there off field troubles, once there back on there feet again maybe just maybe they could once again become a SL team.

Time for the Fax to step up to SL

When you're only talking about figures of 4-6k then "a couple of thousand" represents a pretty sizeable difference in percentage terms though.

Are you seriously telling me that Wakefield could effectively double their home support with the right reinvestment and relocation?

They don't have to double their support, adding 4k, like Warrington have to their average since moving to the HJ, would bring Wakefield to an average of around 10k. It would also mean that they would probably sell out at least two and possibly three fixtures at Newmarket per season in SL. Warrington did only have a slightly larger average than Wakefield before moving, so the question to you is why is 4k not achievable?

Let face it, it is not only Warrington that have done this in recent history.... Leeds RLFC/Rhinos have trebled, never mind doubled, their crowd average since the 1980's!

Comparing attendances now in the SL era to when the game was at a nadir in the early 80s is spurious reasoning. Why pick that particular time, other than because it fits your argument?

Leeds have managed to increase their crowds without a stadium move, which would suggest that on field success is a much bigger driver in increasing attendances than having a new facility to play in.

Adding 4k is effectively doubling their home support - where is the extra Wakefield fan for each one who already attends going to come from?

My argument was mainly about if Wakefield could add 4k to their attendance if Warrington did and ask you why you didn't think this was possible... but you are ignoring this question? The issue about Leeds RLFC/Rhinos average was disproving that even doubling a crowd and even trebling a crowd is possible, because it has been done, it was nothing more than that!

I am not arguing that on-field success does add crowd numbers but I still think new modern facilities play just as big a part and of course we then have the whole Chicken and egg argument. Lets face facts, they are never going to be worthy of investment in the crap hole that is Belle Vue... Belle Vue still makes Wheldon Road and The Willows look like state of the art complexes in comparison!

The Wakefield District is a hot-bed of Amateur RL and therefore you have to think that it is very achievable for both Wakefield and Cas to increase their average attendances above 10k and sell out their respective new grounds for some fixtures.

Living in the Wakefield area, I do think that they could add say 3-4k to their crowds, but it would take some years to do so, and would have to be a staged process. In finite terms, the first stage increase would be from the move to a new stadium, and would add IMO around 1500 to 2000 potential regular supporters. Don't forget that not so many away fans go to BV and that parking and access is a complete nightmare. From the people living in the Wakefield area who I have spoken to I think the above is "do-able".

The second stage would then have to be increase via improvements in the quality of the product (rather than the packaging) and would need investment in better players over a consistent period. Again this would IMO add a further 1500 to 2000 spectators taking the overall total up by 3-4000.

If they only move stadium and don't improve the playing staff, I don't see them getting anywhere near an extra 4k spectators through the gates...

Cumbria is a hotbed of amateur RL, but it's nowhere near being able to support a viable SL club, let alone two and one of the better supported sides outside SL as the Wakefield area does.

When would the last time have been that both Wakefield and Castleford averaged over 10k for a season? I'm guessing it would be prior to when I started watching the game in the early 70s, so what makes you think that historical apathy can be changed?

That's the reason I don't think such an increase would be possible - too much local competition (already ahead of them in the development process for new facilities) and no evidence of latent support to tap into (outside of one-off games such as the local derby relegation decider against Castleford).

You are correct, Cumbria is a hot-bed of amateur RL... but with a population demographic that has the biggest impact on why Cumbria would struggle to support a SL franchise. Wakefield and Castleford population demographic is just as good (well much better as a district) as Warrington and while not as good as Leeds, it has arguably does have the latent support to tap into as it has a much better amateur RL scene than Leeds.

Lets look at the Yorkshire Unison league shall we! Nine of the twelve teams in the first division are from Wakefield, three in the second and four in the third. This is what I am basing my theory on (because, yes it will only be proved over time and if Newmarket and GH get built) but you are just basing your arguments on your own opinion so far with nothing factual to back anything up?

You mean apart from the fact that Wakefield and Cas haven't both averaged over 10k in living memory?

Your argument about the amateur scene converting into support for a professional club is based on the supposition that those involved in it aren't already supporters of some other professional club, such as Leeds, Castleford or Featherstone for example.

You're hardly presenting a compelling argument, other than "Warrington did it, so why can't Wakefield"?

That would be wrong of course, they have yes! Did you mean to type in recent memory?



No, I am fully aware of this (given where I live!!!) but think that is not a major issue.



In you opinion but at least I have presented an argument... I am still waiting for yours?

Can you quantify why you have linked those two statements together?

Do you mean that by virtue of living in the Wakefield area you've personally spoken to 3-4 thousand people who currently don't attend but have told you that they would attend?

No I don't mean I've done a poll of 3-4000 people, however from a straw poll in a local pub (not massively rugby supporting) and at the rugby club my son has started to attend to get a balanced view of likely fans and unlikely fans, I would estimate that, as I said above, around an additional 1500-2000 people would attend due to improved access and facilities, and then a similar figure would attend due to improved performances. Of course this would assume that there are a number of other outlying areas in Wakefield where similarly minded fans could be lured in/back, but given that it worked in Warrington, and the increases Hull FC gained from moving to the KC Stadium, I don't think it's too big a stretch of the imagination.

That's quite a leap you've taken there from chatting to a few blokes in the pub and at your lads rugby club to concluding 3-4000 more people could be persuaded to attend. Very scientific method of reaching such a conclusion.

If you build it they will come, because the crazy old bloke in the Tap Room at the Horse and Jockey told Batley it would be so.

I have made reasonable assumptions based on previous public experience (Warrington and Hull) and the fact that many people who live near to me are ex Wakefield fans who have been put off by a combination of poor facilities / access and a poor playing squad. I also clearly stated that this would have to be in a staged increase dependant on two very different success factors.

Rather than trying to score cheap points by mocking my conclusion, tell me why it couldn't possibly be correct, or can't you do that?

ps, we all know that the crazy old bloke in the Tap Room at the Horse and Jockey is you...

How many people have you discussed this with? I am impressed.

That is quite easy. I shall apply the same rationale as you have. I asked an old whino at a bust stop in Batley (which has a WF post code) his opinion and he said crowds would decrease at Wakefield with a new stadium and better results. I therefore have made a few reasonable assumptions, a huge leap of faith and determined you're making shizzle up - again.

maybe, but I am the only one in the pub that will talk to you.

I see you still struggle with the reasoned response, falling back into mocking and points scoring again.

5/10 I expect better from you. See me after school...

Barnsley or Doncaster for Wakefield 2012 season? Talking to both about groundshare.

In which case, you're clearly either too emotionally (professionally?) invested in the topic to take any notice of anything that anyone else contributes, or you can't read.

I've stated my belief that the latent support simply is not there for the Wakefield club irrespective of where it plays, based on its inability to pull a crowd of 10k for even one-off games, never mind 13 times a season.

This IMO isn't helped by having plenty of local competition for the leisure pound even amongst rugby league fans, with two SL clubs (Leeds and Castleford) and one successful non-SL side (Featherstone) eating into its potential supporter base.

Come on Frosties mate, that is old news now!



They might be at one of those places this season now as well... now the ownership of Belle Vue is known!

To be fair Andy, the above is a reasonable argument but it was not as clear in previous posts as you have made it above. I still disagree that this would stop Wakefield doing what Warrington did and put a good 4k average on their gates for the reasons I state.

I am obviously emotional involved now but I had this opinion prior to getting involved with Newmarket and if you do a search I am sure you will find me saying something similar about potential increase in gates in much early posts about Wakefield.

To be fair only time will tell now!

Also, they have in most SL seasons managed to pull a 10k plus gate at Belle Vue against either Cas or Leeds and they were just short of 10k when we visited in February or March last year... not bad for Belle Vue in the cold!

Ok, so who owns it?