Smith's game-plan worked for 77 minutes, I don't see what the problem was, I've seen many Leeds coaches put a team out and the game plan not work for 80 minutes, let alone not work for 3!

The tedry of some Leeds fans astounds me!

Barrie was dire against BRadofrd the week before, but at least the guy kept putting his hand up and wanting to take the ball up. It just didn't happen for him.

However, even if Smith should have dropped Barrie, he should have gone with scruton instead, rather than whoever was the replacement.

You think so?

I doubt the game plan was to score late on in order to be narrowly ahead and hanging on with 2 knackered props against a side you were widely expected to beat easilly.

Its all ifs, buts and maybes and so many imponderables in that particular match but my expectancy on the morning of the game was that we'd win fairly easilly.

Depends how much you want the CC

Smith dropped Barrie for a big game that we lost narrowly and is still roundly criticised for it.

Yet a previous, much more popular but less successful Leeds coach, dropped Barrie for a Grand final which we lost by a higher margin. Rarely mentioned on here and didn't affect the said coaches popularity.

Shows the fickle nature of our fan base.

Only last week on here people were saying our success over the last 5 or 6 years has been tarnished by our failure to win a CC.

Help me out on this.

Did the previous coach select another prop in preference to Barrie (as he had for a number of games that year) or did he simply drop him and go into the game with 2 props?

Agreed

We hadn't lost to Hull for 3 seasons or so, and we'd beaten the same team comfortably less than 2 months previously, and prior to the bulls agme had won something like 11 straight games, scoring an average of around 40 pts a game. there should have been no way that Hull should have won that game

He had Jamie Mathiou on the bench, not sure who this helps.

I see yer point G but Barrie mac wasn't a pivotal member of the pack in 98 and murray made his selections on that basis whereas 2005 he was imo a more crucial member of that pack.
I know exactly where you are coming from but i just think the comparison is an inaccurate one to make.

A bit like Saints winning how many games on the trot to the GF in 2008, beating us 3 times in a row and tonking us in the play offs?

Ah, like the discussion we had last week.

What teams Should and shouldn't do when internet afficionadoes look at their strengths and weakness on a paer list.

A question, if there was no way Hull should have won that game and if we were so superior why did Barrie Mac's omission and Senior fitness matter?

Its a fair cop. I concede.

We didn't play the 2005 CC final with 2 props either.

Sorry, I'd forgot the specialist mobile prop forwardry skills of JJB.

In 2005 barrie was not a crucial member of the pack. His role had diminished in 2004 (see his game time in the 2004 GF) and by the following year he was at Widnes.

Barrie was pretty much at the end of the line in 2005. His omission from the 2005 CC Final was harsh and I felt desperately sorry for but to say he would have made a difference bears no reality to the level of performance he was giving us then, legend that he was/is.

Barrie was certainly at or nearer his peak in 1998 than he was 7 years later. Murray didn't ship him out for form, but for poor discipline. I am not suggesting Murray was wrong but find it odd that Smith gets so harshly scrutinized yet Murray's decision is never mentioned.

A position Mr MClennan has played JJB in this year, I might add. He's done it a few times.

Yet nobody on here ever mentions it. Strange how Smith got lambasted for the same decision............

The starting pack was:

Ryan Bailey, Matt Diskin, Danny Ward
Ali Lauitiiti, Chris McKenna, Gareth Ellis

Subs:

Danny McGuire
Andrew Dunemann
Willie Poching
Jamie Jones-Buchanan

Cheers.

Were Bailey and Ward substitued during the game or did they both play 80 mins?

Ward played 67 minutes
Bailey played 63

I guess so although Ward was still out on his feet at the end.

Excerpt from the YEP match report:

[iLeeds went into the game as red hot favourites, but they failed to live up to their star billing – and crucially coach Tony Smith's selection gamble failed. The decision to start Keith Senior in the left-centre, despite a painful ankle injury, and to leave out veteran prop Barrie McDermott was a huge risk and it didn't pay off. Senior was clearly not fit and had to be substituted at half-time. Unable to run, his contribution was limited to flicking out passes from a standing start, depriving the Rhinos of one of their most potent strike weapons. McDermott's absence was also felt as the Rhinos lacked an enforcer to shake up Hull's dominant pack[/i

67 mins is a long time for a prop like Ward. Especially considering how much work he did in those 67 mins too.

I disagree re-barries form in 2005 and on previous meetings against the hull pack he'd come out favourably performance and result wise.
I may be wrong but didn't he break his leg and end up at bramley in 98???
I'm not questioning his discipline issues he openly admits to them but i thought that he did his leg in 98.
People will always have differing opinions on smith in 2005 simply because dropping barrie mac and starting with a lame senior in a cc final surprised so many and then when we lost aswell it was an easy way to blame smith for some.
However imo they failed to see the bai brainfart,calderwoods blunder or the fact that hull were pretty much deserved winners.

I'm sorry, but you are just arguing for the sake of it today, how can you say that the team we sent out was the best options for that game. No recognised prop on the bench to go with 2 from Hull, two half backs on the bench, even if 1 was playing hooker.

It was a stupid team selection which back-fired. We could have got away with a lack of a prop on the bench if there was a 3rd forward, but there wasn't meaning that all the forwards would have had to do 60 minutes each, rather than the clsoe to 50 that they usually played with in previous games.

I wouldn't have minded Barrie being dropped if Scruton was playing, but he wasn't selected either.

Agreed, especially with it being a hot day too!