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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Not at all - I would not expect the club to give any player who is 30 a 4 year contract - it smacks of a thank you; this is pro sport it is cynical/ruthless we have seen what happens to players who go on too long - Senior is there for all to see.
'"
Sinfield has been head and shoulders our best player all year. You said so yourself. In a better team he'd be talked about as man of steel material.
Quote There is a lot of hope being put on the shoulders of McGuire and Peacock - that is asking a lot given the type of injury and with captain fantastic out there they should be but bit players?'" Nowt wrong with hope. But you're right and I am realistic.
Quote Sadly last season showed McGuire is anything but a bit player - and as last night showed captain fantastic isn't quite so fantastic - another 4 years of that!!!'" McGuire is an excellent player and I am not unhappy at having him, Burrow and Sinfield resume their golden triangle for the foreseeable future. Why do you think we'll have another 4 years like last night's game rather than 4 years like the previous weeks of the season David? Tell me, how do you think McGuire might have fare last night? If McGuire would have looked as bad in such a shambolic display, as surely he would, would we have a "cultural issue" with McGuire and would we need to be rid of him?
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| Quote ="Maverick Rhino"Nope.
But I don't know what it is we are trying to achieve, do you?
For example, he gave a bizarre press conference earlier in the year starting that completion rates are over-rated. The team seem to be playing with a complete disregard for completion rates, building pressure, and creating repeat sets that everyone understands leads to success.
Is that part of his plan? Its a pattern thats been there through the year and its getting worse.
What is he trying to get them to do, because it looks fundementally flawed and it puts a shakey defence under even more pressure.'"
To build pressure you need forwards that win the arm wrestle and half backs with a solid kicking game - Leeds don't have a pack of forwards that can do that, nor do they have half backs with the requist kicking skills, so their only alternative is to go round teams from their own half - which is ok if you have speed - something Leeds don't have either.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"To build pressure you need forwards that win the arm wrestle and half backs with a solid kicking game - Leeds don't have a pack of forwards that can do that, nor do they have half backs with the requist kicking skills, so their only alternative is to go round teams from their own half - which is ok if you have speed - something Leeds don't have either.'"
Oh dear, we don't have anything do we. Lets just shut the place down and have done with it.
Do you honestly believe that the whole squad is useless, or are you just having one of your moments?
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| Quote ="G1"Sinfield has been head and shoulders our best player all year. You said so yourself. In a better team he'd be talked about as man of steel material.
Nowt wrong with hope. But you're right and I am realistic.
McGuire is an excellent player and I am not unhappy at having him, Burrow and Sinfield resume their golden triangle for the foreseeable future. Why do you think we'll have another 4 years like last night's game rather than 4 years like the previous weeks of the season David? Tell me, how do you think McGuire might have fare last night? If McGuire would have looked as bad in such a shambolic display, as surely he would, would we have a "cultural issue" with McGuire and would we need to be rid of him?'"
To be head and shoulders the best player is not saying much - even you have to agree?
He is the captain/leader - do you honestly think he is leading taking his troops with him. You only have to look at our discipline to see he has no control of his team mates. I bet if Peacock told you to do something you might be more inclined to take note?
I think he is actually doing the opposite - I think he doesn't rate McDermott and wants a change, he did it to the last 2 coaches and he was the prime reason Noble did not get the job at Leeds. His influence rightly/wrongly cannot be ignored and he has to shoulder some of the blame for what is going on.
Let's face it he has a hand in 3/4 out of every 6 plays - he cannot be immune from critic at the lack of attacking prowess shown in recent weeks. He throws more hospital passes than any half back in SL.
McGuire is a one off - he is instinctive and has a better read of the game of any player in that squad - he plays as an individual in a team sport not unlike the majority of real elite athletes - Rooney is another. They make things happen - Sinfield and Burrow make work as a pair but the idea of a golden triangle is a fallacy.
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| Quote ="Maverick Rhino"Oh dear, we don't have anything do we. Lets just shut the place down and have done with it.
Do you honestly believe that the whole squad is useless, or are you just having one of your moments?'"
I think we will struggle this year and will continue to do so until there is a significant change in personnel/culture at the club.
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| Not this crap again is macdumbnut your dad or summat,his clueless interview should be enough to tell you how useless the bloke is.In every sport the buck stops with the coach/manager,the team are playing to his tactics and instruction,the defence is beyond terrible and you cant expect to chuck the ball about on the back of that and get away with it.
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| He always seems to be so awkward in his interviews, as if he hasn't a clue what he's going to say, and when he does say something, he seems shocked at what he says.
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto".....players injuries.....players errors... players lack of discipline.... players past those past their sell by date..... players not up to standard.
So many posters are looking for a simple answer to a more complex set of problems. Understandable anger and dissapointment lead many to blame it all on the coach and make “off with his head” remarks. Our basic problems are not new and there was evidence of a squad in decline even before our poor form last season.
Without McGuire last season IMO we would have finished 7th or 8th. He on his own won us matches that otherwise we did not deserve to win. Other games were won in the last seconds due, dare I say, to a high risk throw the ball around style. For most of the season we played dull, one up rugby with no plan B. In weeks 8-12 we were in 9th position and conceded an average of almost 21 points per game over the full SL season. So there were cracks appearing in our defence all year which fully showed itself in the embarrassment in the CC Final at Wembley.
So the new coach inherited some serious systemic problems which have been further exacerbated by a prolonged run of injuries that have depleted his options. Maybe he is not the man to solve these problems but as they are not of his making it is far too soon and most unfair to pronounce judgement against him.
I have not been on the coaching field to see his methods or the structure he is asking them to perform, neither do I know his game plan and I guess his critics are no more knowlegable than I. But what I do see is the players making many basic errors and missed tackles, fumbling on the first pass of a penalty tap near their line, giving away possession and field position with silly penalties. These are the responsibility of the players and nothing to do with an attacking style or a possible flawed defence pattern.
Remember when Noble first went to Wigan he took a long time to get them off the bottom of the table.
So before we can apportion blame and recify the problems we have first to identifiy them. IMO the following factors have been responisble for our current situation.
1. Bad recruitment & contract management from GH & co.
Our club management must take the main responsibility for a lack of quality recruitment (youth, SL & Overseas) and a big lack of succession planning. A failure to realise that certain players had peaked or that others would struggle to recover from injuries or that we had no reserve strength for certain key positions where we had an over reliance for success. We still have never fully replaced Ellis who was such an important forward for us and have no reserve specialist half backs. Too many of our players contracts run out at the same time.
2. A prolonged run of serious injuires
This is part and parcel of the game but Leeds have suffered more than most in the last couple of seasons. Remember it took McGuire almost 2 seasons to recover from his previous serious injury. Diskin, Burrow & Webb have never fully recovered from their injuries. Ali has not been fit for 3 seasons. Buderus missed most of his first season, Watkins, JP & McGuire last year. This year still without JP and McGuire and new injuires to BJB, Smith, Delaney, Burgess, Bailey, Kylie, Hardacre and all.
3. Players past their sell by date
Superleague is in the entertainment business and there should not be too much room for sentiment. Players such a Ali, Senior and possibly Burrow, Webb, Kylie, Kirke and Bailey should have been replaced to make way for a mixture of both youngsters and better quality new blood.
It is noticable that Warrington, Wigan, Huddersfield and Saints have been better than Leeds in succession planning.. So much of our success was down to the luck of having so much outstanding young talent available at the same time from the academy without having to recruit. This made us complacent.
4. Failure to adapt to a changing game
Our defeat in the WCC last year signalled a change in the refs interpretation at the ruck which we failed to adapt to. The deliberate slowing down of the PTB by refs who also allowed extra players to join in an already tackled player, which is purely a tactic to further slow down the PTB, resulted in Leeds having no answer to this new development. Not only did we fail to match Wigan, Huddersfield, Warrington and Saints at the ruck but we did not seem to have the right players physically or mentally to adapt.
So what do we do?
The first thing is not to panic but to be planning for the future even if it means missing out on trophies again this year.
We have to bring back the loan players to improve our options, drop a couple of players who are badly out of form and give some youngsters a chance. The most obvious to rest are Senior and Hauraki. We also have to pick our best tacklers, cut out the penalties and inprove our kicking game.
Changes to the side may help restore some confidence. This lack of confidence has seen us losing our attacking style which at least has been one of the few positives this year. This needs to return.
We have to not retain players who are also rans. They may be cheap for the salary cap but they block the way for youngsters.
We have to be recruiting now otherwise it will be the bottom of the barrel again.
On the positive side we have two of our most influential players set to return although we should not expect them to return in full form. Also with the SL being wide open this year it means anything can happen at the end of the season so we just have to hang on in, give some youngsters a go and hope that the players regain some form soon.
As supporters we have to accept that there are several better sides than ours now and until we get back our injured stars we will struggle. So get off the coaches back, stop blaming the attacking style and start to enjoy it as it may be the only thing you get to cheer about this year!'"
Agree with everything there.
As soon as fit and available get Stevie Ward, Jack Carvill, Singleton, and Hood integrated into the first team and stick with them and build the next team around them. Get them in fast and forget the results.
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| Quote ="Sibbs Rhinos"He always seems to be so awkward in his interviews, as if he hasn't a clue what he's going to say, and when he does say something, he seems shocked at what he says.'"
In his defence Agar is the same.Some coaches are not comfortable with the media,even though it is part of the job.
Others love it,Justin Morgan for instance,pair of sunglasses,hair gel, fixed grin,and he is away. 
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| Quote ="G1"OK, ignoring last night then. I do not enjoy seeing us lose 30 to 42 every week. You might, I don't..'"
No I don't enjoy losing either.
We are conceding 26.8 points per game so far against 21 points all last season.
So given that the coach inherited the basic defensive flaws evident to some us us last year but not to you.
He also inherited a squad in decline with two of the three most influential players absent with long term injuries.
To this he has had his selection options further restricted by several new injuries including his protege BJB.
Add in a loss of form for several experienced players and a string of errors which in no way can be construed as down to a playing style or game plan.
He is also up against 4 or 5 other teams that have better squads
So your simplistic solution is to blame the coach along with all these others with their verdicts based on 10 seconds of thought.
I don't know what your coaching or team management experience is but unless you are aware of what is going on on the training field or in the dressing room you are in no postion to say who is responsible for the poor results.
Where you are in a position to pass a verdict is on the players performance on the field which you have done in way that some would say is a somewhat predjudiced manner. You pick on Buderus, one of our few players that have performed, yet defend the likes of Senior and Bailey which is bizarre.
Quote ="G1"Was it the player's fault at Harlequins, or Warrington when Lowes was in charge there?
Talk to Wire fans and ask them the difference between a quality coach and Lowes. Heck, read the posts on this very forum from the quins fans.
If I don't get it I am afraid I am not the only one.'"
I am talking about McDermott who the knives areout for. As for Lowes I have my doubts but the thoughts of some Quinns and Wires fans is hardly proof. I seem to remember the Wires stuffed us at Wembley and did Harlequins beat us in the league?
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| I think It is far too simplistic to just blame it all on players. Mcdermott HAS to take some of the flack. He is the manager and coach, he didnt just take the team over last night He has had a whole pre season with them all (probably the best turn out for pre season since 2004?) and we are now at the easter period. He has clearly failed to get the players either wanting to play for him or play how he wants, He has had enough time.
Yes the players are at fault as well but the idea I get from some is Mcdermott is untouchable. He along with all the players right up to GH need to take some responsability for the poor play we see today. cant all just be placed on the door of the players.
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| Quote ="Ferdy"I think It is far too simplistic to just blame it all on players. Mcdermott HAS to take some of the flack. He is the manager and coach, he didnt just take the team over last night He has had a whole pre season with them all (probably the best turn out for pre season since 2004?) and we are now at the easter period. He has clearly failed to get the players either wanting to play for him or play how he wants, He has had enough time.
Yes the players are at fault as well but the idea I get from some is Mcdermott is untouchable. He along with all the players right up to GH need to take some responsability for the poor play we see today. cant all just be placed on the door of the players.'"
And its very simplistic to put all the blame on the coach as so many are doing. Why can't you accept he took over a team indecline with an ongoing serious injury crisis that one week gave him no props. At Easter last year we were 9th in the table and also playing badly.
With the exceptions of one or two youngsters these are seasoned professionals that are making basic errors.
Do you think that the new coach has asked them to tackle in a different way eg without getting hold of the opposition? Or drop the ball on the first pass.
If we dropped Hauraki and Senior our error rate would halve. The problem is with so many injuries he has had to keep playing out of orm players.
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| JC i agree 75% and it is obvious that the players are'nt doing the basics right or performing and they have to take some if not all responsabillity for their efforts.#
What i will add and i've defended Brian Mc from day 1 don't forget is that last night ,and against HKR they gave up showed no sign of any "structure" and even looked liked they did'nt know each other and that has to come back to the coaches.
He has kept players like Senior and Hauraki in the 17 when they've been awful and injuries or not that shows no bottle imo to take the squad by the scruff of the neck and "make a statement" about who's in charge.
There's also been a distinct lack of a "rethink" re-defensive attitude and indiscipline again and taht can be asmuch about the coach as the players imo.
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| There can be little doubt that McD took over a team in decline. The recruitment was, season on season, poorer, and the established players were all older and slower, however they did have "experience" of big games.
However, he has done absolutely nothing to show that he is fit to be head coach of a club like Leeds (assistant is very different to head coach). This team has now picked up 2 points from the last 10, and is one win ahead of Wakefield, a team who all were backing as the wooden spoonists this year.
We show no cohesion either with or without the ball, and this can only be laid at the door of the coach, as either the players don't understand what they are being asked to do, or they don't want to do it. The third alternative doesn't even bear thinking about...
BMcD isn't responsible for the players dropping the ball, nor giving away penalties (unless this type of defence is his gameplan, which I can't believe), but he should be getting the message through during the week so that we see improvement on gameday, which we sadly are not.
We are currently seeing a team with almost no confidence, being coached by a man who is exposing his lack of knowledge and ability week after week. There has got to be change.
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| No doubt we are playing as badly as I can remember in the last 15 or so seasons. I have no idea (and don't really have the time, resources or inclination to find out) what the position is vis a vis the salary cap, Hetherington's 3-5 year plan, players current deals, the coaches real abilities and methods, who's carrying injuries and who is simply bang off form. Whatever way you look at it we have the playing resources to more than compete and right now we are not!
A couple of thoughts. It only takes a couple of victories for a lot of this to be forgotten. Incredibly we are still in the top 8. We should have players coming back soon(ish). I agree with a lot of what JC says re the problems that are there for all to see having their roots early in Brian McClennan's reign. It would appear that Brain Mc Dermott is attempting a complete skills rebuild currently with very little success.
I for one am prepared to give him some more time however there really does need to be at least some evidence that things are moving in the right direction starting with a victory over a really poor Bradford side on Thursday.
Although watching McDermott's post match interviews is a genuinely painful experience I still prefer him to the much more media assured McRae!
Not time yet to completely write off the season but getting close
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| Some of the fans last night were an embarrassment . Some of the comments they were coming out with were priceless .
' I have never seen such e'
'I have never seen us play so badly'
Fookin useless bunch of w4nkers'
etc etc etc ..
Guessing those fans haven't been following Leeds very long .
The Wigan walk was a disgrace . I almost got trampled at about the 60 mins mark .
Bradford should be interesting . No home or away supporters  20k in 20 days .. Be lucky if they get 10k on Thursday with the performances both teams have been putting in recently ..
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| Quote ="Maverick Rhino" You are joking? Enjoy it? I would suggest the stadium half emptying with 10 minutes to go last night indicates what thousands feel about the dross served up at the moment.'"
Are you Wigan in disguise?
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| Quote ="Maverick Rhino" ... he gave a bizarre press conference earlier in the year starting that completion rates are over-rated...'"
Tony Smith said the same thing when he arrived at Headingley.
To the team, not the press.
Leeds at that time were in the habit of losing to Bradford and he asked the players to estimate their past completion rates against Bradford.
I don't recall the average rate but it was high but Smith was making the point that despite high completion rates they weren't succeeding.
He was saying that completion rates are not the be-all and end-all, you do need to play the percentages sometimes.
What appears to be missing is a game plan and the basic skills required when chucking the ball around.
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| Why do things have to be so black and white. There are multiple problems with the team at the moment. The coach is one, the players are another. Not sure why McDermott was brought in, I was initially confident, but I'm not so sure now. I wouldn't sack him yet though. For me, he's in the Daryl Powell position, manage the transition accept a couple of lean years, and hopefully build a decent team which we can hand on to a top coach.
The players is a more complex issue. In 2009 when we won the SL (for the third time in a row), Sinfield mentioned that the players all accepted less moeny at Rhinos than they would elsewhere. Now the culture of the club has bought that loyalty from the players. That loyalty cuts both ways, and some of the older players are being rewarded for that loyalty shown earlier. I guess it sets down a marker to other players that loyalty is a two way thing.
Recruitment is also something I think we have been poor in. We have known about Seniors decline for a couple of years ago, and yes we should still have stayed loyal to him, but we should have planned better for his retirement. Peacock and Sinfield will start to decline too, and we will really need to be thinking how we can try work without them. Fundamentally, I think the whole way we play will have to change.
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| Quote ="El Barbudo"Tony Smith said the same thing when he arrived at Headingley.
To the team, not the press.
Leeds at that time were in the habit of losing to Bradford and he asked the players to estimate their past completion rates against Bradford.
I don't recall the average rate but it was high but Smith was making the point that despite high completion rates they weren't succeeding.
He was saying that completion rates are not the be-all and end-all, you do need to play the percentages sometimes.
What appears to be missing is a game plan and the basic skills required when chucking the ball around.'"
Exactly.
So you are saying Smith saw a problem, coached and educated the players into playing percentages, taking calculated risks, to provide a winning formulae. Sounds like a plan.
Mcdermott has highlighted a similar thing, but what we are seeing is chaos, forced passes, bad options and failed sets. So, what's his plan? No one has come up with an answer yet, it beats me.
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| The job of the coach is to add value - not every coach has the best squad - what they have to do make the whole greater than the sum of its parts.
Can anyone hand on heart say the coach at Leeds is achieving this?
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| We have seen a number of games this year that have been away from us and slipped away, slipped away, slipped away.
When Mac tactically changes something on the pitch mid-game, a change of pattern, a different play, a change in ethos etc then he can't be blamed IMO. But he has failed to show any kudos as a coach in this area as yet.
There was the Bulls game, first game up, but I think the players thought that Bluey was still coach.
Look at both games at home against Giants 2010 + 2011. Last year the game was away from us and it was a classic comeback, this year it was never on the cards.
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| Quote ="thebloodbath"We have seen a number of games this year that have been away from us and slipped away, slipped away, slipped away.
When Mac tactically changes something on the pitch mid-game, a change of pattern, a different play, a change in ethos etc then he can't be blamed IMO. But he has failed to show any kudos as a coach in this area as yet.
There was the Bulls game, first game up, but I think the players thought that Bluey was still coach.
Look at both games at home against Giants 2010 + 2011. Last year the game was away from us and it was a classic comeback, this year it was never on the cards.'"
Too many differences this season to make any comparison meaningful. Hudderfield are a much better side this year (their coach also needed time!) Our key players that have been performing this year (Sinfield, Buderus & JJB) were feeling the effects of tremendous individual efforts in recent games and were not as effective. To have the classic comeback needs a classic offload game the one that many here have done nothing but criticise.
Why I am defending Mac is that he has had a set of problems that are not of his making and I believe that none of the other coaches in SL would have done any better given the same set of circumstances. He may turn out not to be the best man for the job but to put all the blame at his door at this stage is wrong.
Consider the following:
1. We started off with 2 wins and were playing some attractive rugby and topped the try & points scoring list. So this would indicate a reasonable pre-season and players understanding the coaches game plan.
2. He has started off without 2 of the 3 most influential players in the squad plus Bailey.
3. Our new injuries started in the 2nd game at Hull and have continued almost evey week since.
Remember he had no props for one game!
Remember how BJB was setting the SL on fire early doors - out on long term
injury.
Remember Delaney made such a good start in the 2nd row - out injured 2nd game.
Remember how well Burgess started the season and had been our best prop - out injured.
Also we have had to play matches withoiut Lauitiiti, Burgess, Kylie, Smith, Hardaker, Ablett, Cross, Clarkson, etc in addition to JP & DM and Bailey.
4. New signing Hauraki has had a terrible start with missed tackles and handling errors galore, matched by Senior whose form has deserted him. You cannot blame the coach for this yet these two between them have cost us victories.
5. We were unlucky to play Harlequinns when they were in a purple patch and top of the table.
So our problems are many and complex and added together are the reasons for the bad start. But no worse a start than last season when we did not have the above set of factors. What is now compounding our problems is the players know the supporters are unhappy and critical and this only puts further pressure on them leading to a further loss of confidence and a downward spiral. Soon they will prefer to play away than at Headingley.
I cannot overstate the serious set of injuries this year and I feel this is the main factor.
Despite all this we should have beaten Wigan and we showed for most of the game excellent attack and well organised defence but basic errors from Webb and Senior cost us the tries that would have sealed the victory despite the Wigan comeback and the switching off in defence in the last 15 minutes. This was not the coaches fault but the players.
These sort of errors are not down a a style of play they are players errors that they normally would not make.
Everyone knows that we have some real serious defensive issues but they are not new and were evident last season too. Some say the coach should have fixed it by now but the injuries have meant a constantly changing side with players out of position and him having to select some out of form and I guess also some not fully fit players because of neccessity.
Since our back to back GF wins too many posters seem to think it is our God given right to win everything now. Winning silverware should always be our target, but as there is only one GF winner and one CCup winner the odds will always be against this happening. If your only definition of success is silverware you are going to be disappointed for most of the time. (or go support Man U)
IMO what is more important is to watch attractive rugby and for Leeds to be in with a chance of victory as often as possible. St Helens have missed out on silverware so often but must be considered one of SL's most successful and entertaining sides- whats wrong with that.
That is why I say we should encourage our team to play thrilling rugby rather than one up stuff so we can enjoy the entertainment even when we lose.
SL is all about momentum. Not just during a game but in sequences of games. The other sides will have their turn and IMO we will improve enough to be round and about at the end of the season. I hope that the standard of play improves soon so that we can all get behind the team as having the crowd behind you is always worth a few points and improves the players confidence.
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| JC I admire your optimism and dedication. Sadly I do not share it.
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| Great post JC some very valid and relevant points well thought out and put across.
I agree in the main but do you not think the coach should be getting better efforts out of what is avialable and the lack of hunger ,desire and basic defensive structure and technique should fall at his door?
The improvement in teams like the Giants are there for all to see but again no matter what our problems are we could and should be so much better not least in terms of effort and the basics.
I do agree the players really should take their fair share if not most of the blame but they don't look like they want to play for the coach and more importantly the coach does'nt seem to know what to do about it.
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