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| In both the CC final and last week's game I'd have preferred to see us kick for touch instead (this was at the time that the kicks were taken and not with the benefit of hindsight - obviously I was delighted with the Wigan result and cared not a jot whether it was achieved through tries or kicks).
Can we afford to try the same tactic again this weekend or do we need to be more positive? McGuire's return, and the Warrington's propensity to score relatively heavily suggests to me we should attack their line.
Thoughts?
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| Kicking for goal is almost always the wrong thing to do. Circumstances have to be exceptional to do anything other than run it, much like opting to bat first on winning the toss in cricket.
It's a sign of weakness, an admission that you don't reckon you can break the opposition down in the next passage of play. Also, ask yourself what your opposition would like to do less - defend another set or have a breather for 90 seconds?
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| Quote ="John_D"Kicking for goal is almost always the wrong thing to do. Circumstances have to be exceptional to do anything other than run it, much like opting to bat first on winning the toss in cricket.
It's a sign of weakness, an admission that you don't reckon you can break the opposition down in the next passage of play. Also, ask yourself what your opposition would like to do less - defend another set or have a breather for 90 seconds?'"
On Friday 'apparently ' it was the right thing to do,each match demands different tactics also weather conditions plays a big part.
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| Quote ="John_D"Kicking for goal is almost always the wrong thing to do. Circumstances have to be exceptional to do anything other than run it, much like opting to bat first on winning the toss in cricket.
It's a sign of weakness, an admission that you don't reckon you can break the opposition down in the next passage of play. Also, ask yourself what your opposition would like to do less - defend another set or have a breather for 90 seconds?'"
That being said, it was clearly the game plan on friday and we obviously thought without Tomkins we'd have enough defensively to win the game by the small margin.
I was dissapointed to see us taking the 2 at 8-0 up but in hindsight, obviously, Sir Kev knows best.
I wouldn't expect quite so many penalities on saturday however. The game will be won by a greater margin for either team. McGuire back is obviously a boost.
Off topic BUT I always think Rugby Union award mediocrity by giving 3 points for the penalty. What's the point in going for the try? Saracens haven't scored a try in 3 games now and have won 1, drawn 1, lost 1. </rant>
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| Quote ="Backwoodsman"On Friday 'apparently ' it was the right thing to do,each match demands different tactics also weather conditions plays a big part.'"
Was just about to say the same thing.
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| Quote ="Backwoodsman"On Friday 'apparently ' it was the right thing to do,each match demands different tactics also weather conditions plays a big part.'"
The confluence of circumstances aligned correctly in that instance.
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| Well, whatever happens it's unlikely we'll be taking the 2 very often. That would be very out of character.
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| I think you have to judge the game, and how it's been played. Is it something where teams are going to score in the teens, or in the thirties?
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| Quote ="The All New Chester Wire"Well, whatever happens it's unlikely we'll be taking the 2 very often. That would be very out of character.'"
You just take the one pointer instead.
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| Taking the two is not a sign of weakness if it actually is the most realistic propsect of scoring points.
People are forgetting how poor our attack is in our opponent’s 10m and how good the Wigan and Warrington defences are on their own line. We are much, much better at building momentum from deep and scoring long range tries and tries from kicks. We should play to our strengths.
It would be far worse for our confidence to kick to touch and be constantly repelled by Warrington’s organised, well-coached goal line defence.
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| Quote ="Richie"I think you have to judge the game, and how it's been played. Is it something where teams are going to score in the teens, or in the thirties?'"
This. I don't think you make these decisions in advance. On Friday, as the game panned out, both defences were tough to break down, and attacking sets overwhelmingly did not produce tries. So the 4 points we got free and gratis form the kicking tee were crucial and absolutely the right thing to do.
For the WIre fan who says it would be out of character - it was for us under Tony Smith too. But in the 2004 GF, the difference between the sides in the end was Sinfield's boot - including 2 first half penalties that we would doubtless have run during the regular season.
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| I disagree that its a sign of weakness. I consider it a strength, in knowing when to take points and when to turn the screw.
In many of our GF vitories, we have taken the points on offer from the tee, but at other times we have run the ball. It just depends on the circumstances. And I trust Sir Kev to know when best to take either option
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| GF games are almost always tight games.i would expect us to take the 2 should we have any kind of lead when in range on sat. night.
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| It's all on context of the game. Even then there's no right or wrong answer.
If Leeds were one score up, and 2 points looked on - worth getting 2 scores in front of a grand final? Probably.
Or do you turn the screw? Again worth considering.
If Leeds hadn't seen the wolves try line would they take 2, or maximise scoring chances? Again - who knows.
Suppose that's why we have King Kev to make those calls. Toughies.
Only cringe apspect for me is the scene where you go for 2 then cock up from the re-start or in that set and gift field position, momentum and possible points away.
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| Every situation is different. Finals and semi finals tend to be close tight games, so generally you are best to take the points on offer.
Leeds didn't score a try from their own attacking play against wigan, had it not been for the decision to go for the 2 leeds could (and possibly would) have lost the game.
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| Quote ="Peter Kingsley"Leeds didn't score a try from their own attacking play against wigan, had it not been for the decision to go for the 2 leeds could (and possibly would) have lost the game.'"
Totally agree re Wigan. But with Wire I reckon it likely we'll be stuffed if we don't carve out more in the way of chances, regardless of points accrued from penalties. And it might be that our best chance of doing that would involve taking a tap or two close to their line.
Then again, I was yelling for Sinfield to run it in the 2003 CC final. Sadly he did
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| Quote ="John_D"Kicking for goal is almost always the wrong thing to do. Circumstances have to be exceptional to do anything other than run it, much like opting to bat first on winning the toss in cricket.
It's a sign of weakness, an admission that you don't reckon you can break the opposition down in the next passage of play. Also, ask yourself what your opposition would like to do less - defend another set or have a breather for 90 seconds?'"
No comparison at all, batting or bowling is dependant on the conditions.
as for taking the two, i will leave it sinfield and peacock etc, they knew what they are doing.
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| Quote ="Clearwing"Totally agree re Wigan. But with Wire I reckon it likely we'll be stuffed if we don't carve out more in the way of chances, regardless of points accrued from penalties. And it might be that our best chance of doing that would involve taking a tap or two close to their line.
Then again, I was yelling for Sinfield to run it in the 2003 CC final. Sadly he did
'"
It's a difficult one. I trust sinfield to make the right judgement at the time. We all sit here thinking we are going to need to score x amount of tries to have a chance of winning, but then the game ends up being a dour war of attrition with only 2 or 3 tries in the entire game. You just can't compensate for the random unpredictable nature of sport.
But if warrington are carving us open, then yeah going for the 2 would be wrong.
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| Quote ="Clearwing"In both the CC final and last week's game I'd have preferred to see us kick for touch instead'"
In the CC final warrington carved us up and scored. They then carved us up again and dropped the final pass. The next chance they got at the line they scored again. On that basis it was clear we'd need to score a fair few tries to win, because they weren't having trouble breaking down our defence, so going for 2 was wrong.
Last week was correct. After the first 15 minutes it was clear it was going to be slugfest settled by no more than 6 points.
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| Quote ="John_D"Kicking for goal is almost always the wrong thing to do. Circumstances have to be exceptional to do anything other than run it, much like opting to bat first on winning the toss in cricket.
It's a sign of weakness, an admission that you don't reckon you can break the opposition down in the next passage of play. Also, ask yourself what your opposition would like to do less - defend another set or have a breather for 90 seconds?'"
in every grand final we have always kicked when its been tight.
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| If the score was say 10-4 to the opposition, and we got a kickable penalty, providing it wasn't too late in the game, I'd want us to kick it to make it 10-6.
But if the score was 10-4 to Warrington, and we conceded a penalty, I'd breathe a sigh of relief if the opposition was kicking for goal. I'd be more scared if they ran it.
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| 2 points. Ball back.
Every time.
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| Quote ="G1"2 points. Ball back.
Every time.'"
Unless Jones-Bishop is underneath the long, high ball kick off
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| What's Sinfield kicking ratio, 85%?
What % of posessions near the opposition line result in a try for Leeds?
Even if Sinfield misses, if the ball goes dead, ball back.
Leeds score more long range tries that short range tries anyway so what the heck.
2 Points, ball back.
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| Quote ="G1"2 points. Ball back.
Every time.'"
Aye. It's not as though we have Buderus to fluff the take from kick off in finals.
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