The Blame Game

Sack the coach – problem solved as many poster seem to think. I don’t think so because this does not address the core problem.

When will some of you realize that our squad is no longer good enough to guarantee a top 4 place. We are being out played by better players from other sides that have kept their squads strong and fresh. The main blame should be directed elsewhere.

Our root problem is a squad with too many players that have gone past their best all at the same time. This in turn has exposed some of the average players for what they are and who had previously hidden behind the coat tails of the stars.

I agree that Mac is not a proven top coach and may well prove never to be up to the job, so I am not defending him because I think he is the man. I just think that we appointed a young British coach with no winning pedigree and we should at least give some time given the problems he inherited (key players out with long term injuries, others past their peak and a bout of new and serious injuries) It is wrong to assume that another better coach could do any different without some quality recruitment.

To compare him with past coaches is futile as the squad was then stronger, younger, fitter and hungrier:

Players that have experienced so much recent success are much more difficult to motivate (eg the great Leeds United side after Revie left for the England job).

We lack a good kicking game and we lack a good go forward game. Until we sign a quality half back with an excellent kicking game, a class centre and at least one current international quality prop then the coach (no matter who it is) will have little chance of making any impact. These problems should have been identified over a year ago with the appropriate solutions put in place.

McDermott has at different times got the team to play good attacking rugby with a sound defence and with a good spirit which proves the players know what is expected and can do it albeit for only part of a game. So it is wrong to lay the blame on a style of play or work on the training field. We have too many that cannot sustain the physical and mental effort for the full 80 minutes.

Some players have lost crucial pace, stamina and the necessary sustained energy which happens as they approach retirement. Others have had serious injuries which will take considerable time to overcome. While sadly other are just not good enough.

These problems were very evident last season but were obscured by some outstanding performances from Mcguire, Sinfield and JP in particular and without which we could easily have finished 5th or 6th in the table.

So if blame is to be made then the first door to visit is that of Mr Hetherington. He failed to identify that the squad needed strengthening and didn’t recruit the right balance and quality of player needed. I suspect for financial reasons he took the risk of doing nothing but it now looks like his gamble has failed.

Where I am critical of the coach/management is in team selection. The absence of Burgess, Clarkson and Cross is a mystery as is the persistence with Hauraki. I cannot believe that this is due to player bonuses as this would send a terribly negative message to all other young players and would prevent them choosing to come to Leeds.

Despite all this we should be still good enough for a 5th place finish (even 4th if one of the other teams suffer injuries/loss of form) However our best chance is to prepare to get our best team fit and in form for the playoffs and who knows maybe our former heros are capable of one last hurrah.

the club needs a major overhaul. a new top class coach is needed. however much you say mcdermott needs time he clearly is not up to this level of coaching.
senior,ali,kylie,haukari,bailey and kirke all need to be let go. they are either past it or not good enough.
delaney needs to move into the second row and either smith moved there or another centre signed.
we need a couple of class second rows and props. and lets have them with a bit of mongrel, we are way to soft.
looking at the juniors today and the u20's the long term is very bright. lets get the next 3 or 4 years put right.
whoever we sign has to be class though. its no good GH getting the cheap option, it just doesn't work

But it is GH who is in charge of the purse strings and recruitment. The recruitment should have been done a year ago which is why I say replacing the coach now will not solve the problem.

You say he is clearly not up to this level of coaching, which may well be true, but he has been given a real bum hand and so it is difficult to make a sound judgement on his real abilities.

Last year under Bluey we had the same problems evident from the start of the season without as many injuries and with all the players a year younger then. Quite why so many are now surprised we are no longer a top four side and why they did not see our decline last year is also a mystery to me.

I say start the players recruitment now which will take time and start to look for a new coach for next season if Mac does not improve. His selections are strange and his interviews are also odd but we have to remember he was a prop so what do you expect!

We should always start recruitment about now and gh has to take his share of the blame. But the most important man is the coach and he is nowhere near good enough

Its not difficult at all.

His record at Harlequins was dreadful.

His record at Leeds has been dreadful.

The "bum hand" he has been dealt got to within 1 game of the GF and the Challenge Cup Final last year. The squad may be in decline but it is not a "bum hand".

His selections are baffling, and the team appears as lost as the rest of us when trying to work out exactly what they are being asked to do.

If we "lack a kicking game" how on earth did we get by in previous, successful, seasons. Its the same playmakers, who no-one is suggesting we ditch.



Are you actually Brian Mac? Sounds like one of his baffling quotes that. The last 2 games show a far, far more worrying pattern of play against decent opposition.

And what are these "financial reasons" you speak of that are affecting recruitment. Its a salary capped sport, and I reckon we are pretty much up to the cap ... do you know different?

He was the wrong appointment, and should be put out of his misery, along with Lowes.

JC there's absolutely no positive for keeping Brian Mc now.
Early season we had injuries to key players and many of them but not now.
During a winning run Burgess ,Clarkson and Mcshane shone yet they are fit and not selected and we've been shafted twice on the bounce.
There are no signs he's turning it around nor is this team as bad as the 2nd halfs of the last 2 games suggest.
The team are giving in and no matter what the signs last year they never folded on a regular basis ala this year.
He can't give any kind of team talk or if he does the players are ignoring him.
Yes GH needs to shoulder some blame as do the players but the head man isn't up to task and it's time we changed it.

would anyone back our current side to come back from 0-14 at wigan like we did in the play offs, or would most people back them to role over at a canter, for me its the latter. as rhinoms has said no way are we as bad as the last two second half performances. obviously some player presonal has to change and we need freshening up in that area, but the biggest issue is how we are coached or not coached. ive already said on other threads about how frustrated i am with the exclusions of biff and clarky and even cross, after the wire game these three should have been brought straight back for yesterdays games as it send out the message to all the squad perform or you wont get picked.

Brian mac strikes me as being pig headed and if press forums etc are asking why no clarky biff he is more likely to cut his nose off to spite his face?


Agree fully with rhinoms regarding the team

Mcdermott has to go as soon as a top class coach becomes available.. I agree the prop situation urgently needs looking into.. also Kirke, Kylie, Ali, Hauraki all need to go.. Ali has been brilliant for us but sadly he's now too injury prone... Cross has flopped but how much has this been down to the coach? Having said that Donald had a poor first season and look how good he turned out..

We need a top class centre and another good 2nd rower.. i think GH has to seriously look into who's taking up valuable cap space and not producing the goods and get rid in order to have the room to bring in the required players.. sadly it's time Senior retired.. he's an absoloute legend and one of the all time great Leeds players imo but it's time to free up cap space for someone younger and better..

A lot of work to be done and it needs to start now.

agree we need to have a big clearout and shake up of both coaches and players. I hope I am wrong but I can't see it happening to the extent that it needs to be. We need to be looking now not when GH fancies a holiday and we get stuck with what's left ( cross and hauraki this year)

What you are forgetting is that for most of last season we were terrible and managed to win enough games in the last minutes/seconds by the individual brilliance of a few key players. Without this we would have finished 5th or 6th.

Were you calling for Bluey to be sacked or perhaps you did not notice the declining standards of play?

Sure we had a go at the end of the season but in the end we were nowhere near good enough to win anything.

The bum hand that the new coach inherited was the same squad that wasn’t good enough to win anything last year PLUS they were all a year older, slower etc and minus the best forward (Eastwood) in the second half of the year PLUS 2 of our best players out for half the season and not likely to achieve full fitness for the rest of the season PLUS an ongoing and worse injury situation for most of the season so far.

IMO this is a bum hand particularly if certain supporters expected an improvement on last year and have been calling for him to be sacked since the first defeat.

Yet, as I said, even now we could still match or improve on last years results.




I agree his selections are wrong as i have said.

But how do you know what they are being asked to do?

Are you suggesting that the coach asked Webb to carry the ball one handed and drop it over the goal line?

Are you suggesting that it was the coach that asked Sinfield to make poor kicks and poor passes?

Do you think the coach has asked the players to argue with the ref or not finish their sets? Or miss tackles?




So you think our kicking game is ok do you?

We have been without McGuire for most of the season and Sinfield has been at SO. So one out of the three playmakers has been missing and not back to form yet and another has had to play out of position.

If you read my post you will see I am suggesting we sign a “quality half back with an excellent kicking game”





The last two games have shown clearly that our squad is not as good as the top 4. I was worried about this last year yet you seem to think this is a new pattern because of the new coach. Where have you been?



Are you actually GH? How do you know that we are pretty much up to the cap? If we are then we have over paid far too many average players. When did Leeds last sign a class threequarter?

GH should have made some changes a year ago.



You may well be right but I maintain that any of the other top coaches would have had similar results given the same squad and injuries. Mac may be a problem but he is not the main problem and until we address this our decline will continue.

I kind of agree with Juan. First off, Mcdermott was fast tracked to Head Coach when Bluey unexpectedly decide to go home a year early. But that is just an aside to the real problem. I'm pretty sure McDermott is NOT telling the players to do the things they are doing, eg knock-ons, bad defensive organisation, poor fifth tackle kick options etc etc.....mauch of the blame lies with the players too. Last night I witnessed an aging squad put to the sword by a bunch of kids, (mainly), and that is happening too often.
Lets look at recruitment, this season Hauraki and Cross. One of them is useless at best, and was even when he played in the U20s side a couple of times, and the other one cant even make the 19 man squad at all, which to me is simply a waste of good salary cap space. Our recruitment therefore is poor, the current squad are well past their sell by date in a lot of cases, and until both of those factors are improved or changed for the better we are still never going to be a top four side again.
There needs to be a massive clear out at the end of this season, we really should be thinking about the coaching staff and asking are they good enough for the demands of our club, and then the emphasis should be put on rebuilding the squad with our own good quality kids, and only import if we can find a quality overseas player, because the last two years have seen only poor quality imports arrive, who do nothing for the team apart from use up precious space on the salary cap.

It is only a guess but I would suggest we are up to cap and this is largley to do with players on long good contracts, coming towards
the end of their deals and not
looking as good value as when they were signing these deals

Yes I was. Leeds deteriorated gradually throughout Bluey's reign. I cannot think of a single player who improved technically during his reign, and slowly they forgot everything Smith taught them. Incredibly there were plenty on here still lauding Bluey's ability, which was so plainly lacking once his fresh, motivational edge had worn off.

This is proof of the value of a coach. Leeds were crying out for a technically minded and hungry Aussie coach to arrest the slide. McDermott is so far from this it is untrue.



Winning isn't the point, they competed when it mattered. Elimination Semi Final and Challenge Cup finalists. They were competitive. (And petulant, injury probe, want away, cry baby Eastwood as best forward?)

There is enough in this squad to compete, they are not doing under this coach.

Of course we have had injuries, which team hasn't, but the teams picked for the last 2 games have been strong enough that injuries should not be in the equation.

Sunday will be a great test, as Leeds will play without possibly 7 regulars due to the meaningless England nonsense on Friday night. In previous seasons they have overcome the loss of 14 internationals and still won the Super League game, will they do this time? I honestly hope they do, but ...




I'm judging what I see every week, just like everyone else.

I see a bizarre start to the year, throwing the ball about in ludicrous fashion, showing zero respect for possession and building pressure, and coaches comments to back that up that completion rates are "overrated".

Then I see this being reigned in to such an extent that we cannot get out of our own half for 30 minutes (Warrington) or play set after set against Saints of one man drives and a kick, followed by coaches comments that we set out to play like that but actually need to be more expansive.

I see a team that under Smith never took the two as they had a clear strategy and belief that they would score six, and if not they would build pressure and take gas out of the opponents tank. Contrast that with the 3 early penalties at Saints ... kick, run, kick?

I see Burrow contributing to positive plays all season, building form in general through April and May bizarrely dropped to the bench against Warrington, and then looking lost on Friday.

I struggle to understand why a so called disciplinarian coach cannot get Webb to shut his mouth. By the way I don't believe for a second McDermott asked Webb to carry the ball one handed, whereas Tony Smith coached the whole team to use that technique and the offload ability of the team became the best in the league as a result.

I despair that our most consistent player and captain had such a dodgy game on Friday. Do you reckon that is a result of his confused role and trying to carry an attacking "structure" that they don't understand?



Where did I say that? I said the players with the kicking duties have done pretty well in that role for 5 years, and I haven't seen anyone suggesting we bin Sinfield, McGuire and Burrow.



Er, at the games. Here's a clue you may have missed, Keith Senior's interview early in the year where he stated Leeds were trying to forget everything from before and start from scratch.



Again the clues are out there, the clubs turnover is the highest in the league and dwarfs the cap. The accounts are openly available and suggest we use the full allocation. GH's public quotes consistently state we use the full cap. Anyhow, I don't need to prove anything, you made the allegation so I'll ask again

...what are these "financial reasons" you speak of that are affecting recruitment. Its a salary capped sport, and I reckon we are pretty much up to the cap ... do you know different?.



This is where we fall into separate camps. I don't dispute playing personel needs to change, I don't think any Leeds fan would argue with that. Nor do I dispute that the decline set in under McClennan. Nor do I think we should be winning everything.

I too can use the benefit of hindsight regarding decisions to sign players, however there seem to be 2 massive targets on here at the moment, and if I am honest I thought Hauraki was worth a punt as a replacement for Ali when he was signed, and we needed a prop so Cross appeared to fit the bill (he may be another useless Aussie, who knows, how people are judging him when he never plays is anyones guess).

I maintain that there is enough abilty, experience and talent still in this squad for us to be competitive every week, and this coach is blatently unable to harvest that.

There's some truth in this, I think, and also in your point about McClennan's role in the decline of the side. However, I also reckon that a lot of the players are physically and/or mentally shot. Out of the list below, which players do you think are capable of attaining their level of playing ability and fitness they showed in the GF years - regardless of whether McDermott is the coach or not?

Webb
Smith
Senior
Burrow
JJB
Peacock
Ali
Bailey
McGuire
Sinfield

I've deliberately left out youngsters and players who maybe played a less significant role than those above. I'm not saying that my point applies to all; however, out of what was once an extremely impressive group of key players there is a significant number who are now struggling - perhaps not surprisingly, given the efforts they put in to win 4 GFs in 6 years.

Speaking to someone very close to thesenior players last night and the think bm is rubbish and want rid. There is no gameplans and team talks are baffling. As it was put to me " there is no direction or leadership. We have to sort it ourselves"

Graham that is pretty obvious but these are elite players - surely McDermot should not have to teach them a sliding defence, how to tackle, how to pass and catch and kick and how to keep their gob shut.

Yes McDermott is out of his depth but both Hetherington and the players need to take a look in the mirror too and that includes the captain.

I would agree but a strong top class coach would sort all these things

Things would be better but we still would have problems competing with the best sides with the current squad. There is a cultural issue that can only be sorted out by breaking the old guard up - this manifests itself in the appalling discipline on the field.

Again I agree but someone like Murray would stop it. He wouldn't accept it. The worst offender, Webb, I wouldn't pick anyway. Also he will be gone next year

I'm with you mate Murray let players have a voice but that was it he was the no1 end of!
Sal i also think IF the player power problem is as big as speculated then all a new coach would need is GH to step in aswell i.e if they don't like it there's the door the coach is the boss!
For me we definatelty need the clear out because looking at the potential in our U20 's ,18 ,16 and 15's i wouldn't want Brian Mc anywhere near them plus i think it would decrease our chances of retaining some of them were he to stay as the coach.
All our acadamy sides are doing the basics ,show structure with and without the ball ,have great discipline and composure and it's a credit to the Acadamy staff throughout the club.

The academy sides have far better structure than the first team

Of the core selected in your list, I have no drama with:

Smith, Burrow, JJB, Bailey, McGuire, Sinfield - and I think with the exception of position hopping Smith and injured McGuire, their performances this season prove they have plenty left

Webb - has actually shown better form this year than the last 2, but his attitude/arrogance appears out of control

Senior & Peacock - obviously not long term answers at all, who knows if Senior will contribute again and although its early to make conclusions on Peacock the signs are that his role needs to change

Ali - remains a bit part player, like every season due to injuries, and therefore a luxury the squad doesn't need

Now, are any of them capable of replicating 04-09? Who knows, probably not. Should the core of Smith, Burrow, JJB, Bailey, McGuire, Sinfield be the basis of a competitive new side if structured and organised correctly? I think yes, and so must the club as 5 of them are on long term contracts (I think).

Where the club has gone wrong is in the appointment of the wrong man to oversee the building and organising of that side.



Team talks are baffling. I would not be suprised if this was true. Communication is a key skill of any leader, and I watch with disbelief as McDermott rambles and bristles through press conferences. He gives the impression that he intimidates journalists into not asking awkward questions, but when he talks about the game half of what he says makes little or no sense to me based on what I have just watched.

God help us if his team talks follow a similar pattern.

GH is in a difficult position - players are contracted and therefore not easy to get rid off under employment law without big pay offs - something the club cannot afford.

If you don't change the 3 half backs in someway you will never be able to change the attack - these players are too old and set in their ways to adapt and learn new skills - and they will collectively get older and slower. We desperately need a kick option - this will not come if we keep the same half backs.

As for Bailey - less said the better.