So IA you're still continuing to rubbish it when in fact, in the post above, you've practically admitted you know zip all like the majority of us. You're just second guessing everything and what really gripes me is that you're spinning things negatively.

I do consider you to be a good poster but surely reading back your own posts you can see why people are stating you have an agenda, an axe to grind. Why don't you actually take your time to speak to Opus who are driving this project, not RW. Maybe then, rather than being opposed (in a fashion) you may realise the benefits and become supportive of the scheme.

Additionally, I don't think the petition would have been organised, endorsed and supported by the club and publicised if it served no purpose.

Danny - I am not rubbishing the petition or any petition, for gods sake, I (and others) spent the whole of January and February focussing our time on organising public meetings and collecting 3000 Statements of Support for Newmarket. That all said, please remember, this isn't a numbers game per-say, I keep telling people this even though I have ended up reluctantly playing the game myself! One genuinely valid (in planning terms) set of objections or equally supporting comments presented by only one person, outweighs any number of people objecting/supporting with less valid reasons! The question here is do WMDC planners have a point about the issues they are raising and asking Opus to go away and look carefully at? If they don't look carefully at these things, will Asda and Morrisons (and even a planning inspector ultimatley?) drive a huge supermarket delivery through any obvious holes in this plan... of course they will!

I also just picked up on something Casmania said on a post on the other forum about this being debated in front of the full council if they got 15k. This suddenly set alarm bells ringing and I thought, hang on, I am not sure that can be right... which it turns out I am probably correct about! The thing about that is I suspect Casmania or one of the Cas supporter organisations thinks that might be the case, and now people posted up the WMDC guidelines, it is clear why they got that impression. What happen at the end of June when the council do turn around and say, actually, we can't debate this for legal reasons, but thanks, we will pass it on to planning!!! You might as well get the council legal team to advise you now if my understanding is correct, and if it is, keep the petition open until the planning actual goes into WMDC later this year!!!

Arghhhhh.... I am not rubbishing it... I do think you and others are focusing CURRENTLY on the wrong things but that is my only major point of difference, and it is just my opinion. As for not knowing anything, I know more than most but admit I am filling in some gaps, like everyone. I know what was said at the meeting, from someone who was there (there I said it... pleased now). I know who Opus's 'proposed' end user client is, I know quite a few of the consultants already working on and others who submitted fee proposals for the scheme, I even know how big the supermarket is to the nearest sq ft retail area... do you?

I don't have any issues with Opus and in future months I suspect they may well contact me, because we are on certain list that they will be given by their proposed end user client. I am not unsupportive of the scheme... although I find it difficult to fully support something I have not yet seen, the only point I am trying to get across is that this will most probably not take months but years to bring to fruition!

On your final point, I don't think the petition is pointless, but you do raise and interesting point about the clubs support of it! Firstly, why would they not support it, Wakey supported much of our effort as best they could for the Statements... why say no? More importantly, this does RW a huge favour with the RFL bid, he will exploit this opportunity for all it is worth, and quite rightly so, but will the decision come down to more than positive PR... possibly, possibly not... I wish I knew!

It didn't look like you were being critical, it was a childish outburst, slagging him off for something he hasn't done. He might put a positive spin on things, but he's never in the past gone around blaming everyone but himself.



So now tell me something I don't know. Whether we like it or not, this is 21st Century business, image is everything, style matters more than substance.



In brief you're saying that telling people the whole truth would consign the club to the fate of Ratners.



BUT, you only know part of the detail so the most you can post is only part of the detail. Yet above you're criticising RW for only telling people part of the detail. That seems to be very hypocritical. Also, you're saying that you feel it's unwise for the club to make all the details public, and that it could affect the franchise process. So you then go and post information on a public forum that you feel would be detrimental to the club, and try to pass this off as some kind of public service. In other words, you don't care a jot about Cas's franchise bid, because you've considered what you've done and done it knowing that it would be detrimental to the club. That's not exactly the act of a philanthropist, is it?



The RFL will have to take the clubs by their franchise bids. Anything else would be seen by whichever club loses its franchise as unfair, and could lead to all manner of trouble for the RFL. Fans' petitions should have nothing to do with it. If they did, the franchising system is just a joke. What's the point of spending all that time and money doing a costed business plan if a large number signatures can change the outcome? And don't spin me the usual line about "This is the RFL we're talking about here." I'm not saying what WILL happen, I'm saying what SHOULD happen. The final decision should be based on the franchise bids and will be scrutinised closely by the lawyers of the team that loses its licence, you can be sure of that.



I was just being sarcastic there. TBH I don't really know what you do but I do know that you're not [iau fait[/i with all the details of this case and that your little pot-shot at RW finding someone to blame showed up your inadequate knowledge of the people concerned. RW has not gone scapegoating people in the past, and if things do go wrong and we don't get a franchise, he's more likely to try to put a positive spin on it rather than blaming the council.

Yours was a childish outburst about someone you clearly don't know and had no place in your post. You go on about "morally starting to struggle" with how the situation is being delivered to the fans, and then you have the audacity to start putting in your four-pennorth when you actually know much less than the club do, and then start slagging off the CEO for no good reason.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Right, I have now had the opportunity to read the link. I disagree. The petition is not asking for them to input on the planning process. The petition is a whole different entity to the planning process. What the petition can do is influence the Council opinion on the land usage of Wheldon Road and in particular The Probiz Coliseum. This means that, in the same vein the LDF was changed for Wakefield, I presume that the land use for Wheldon Road could be changed so that is acceptable for retail usage. It would have nothing to do with the planning application in any way shape or form.

No, but then again I have never said I did know the full details. But what I am not doing is hearing second hand information, listening to someone elses interpretation of that and then attempting to fill in the gaps. What I have said, and will continue to say, is that I believe that this project will not just be beneficial for Castleford Tigers but for the whole of Castleford town centre. It needs money spent on it because, in my opinion, Castleford town centre is derelict, rundown, decrepid and in elements still Victorian.



All the more reason for you to support it at the end of the day. If it benefits you (and the organisation you work for - I believe you are/were the MD of some Timber-related company?) Years in your opinion, Opus think not and you keep relaying back to the door of Castleford Tigers but it is not Castleford Tigers driving it. It is Opus and Palmer Capital so ultimately, RW can only support it because at the end of the day the planning application will trigger the full funding for our new stadium.



Wakey did the statements of support because of the NIMBY (as you refer to them) opposition that dwarfed the Wakefield support as much as you detract from it by the fact they have the same argument and the stats/figures provided. That was a necessary course of action to try and get the PI to support Newmarket. The petition is completely different. And why shouldn't RW exploit this? It provides huge benefits to Cas Tigers and you're forgetting that Saviles will have done their research on these issues so the RFL will be in touch with the current information. I may even suspect that Saviles will have met the relevant parties involved before reporting back to the RFL.

IA - A simple question - It is widely acknowledged that either us or Wakey are for the chop, who would you prefer to 'survive'?

Don't give me the flannel about wanting both teams to stop up or about the unfairness of the criteria and franchise process, just choose one or the other.

Of course he'd want W*key to survive the chop ahead of us. Their fans treat him like a messiah for a start!

I don't think it was a childish outburst, I was overly and unnecessarily critical, and I acknowldge that and I am big enough to say so!


Can't disagree with the sentiment but in my experience, within my sector, businesses that are too much image and not enough substance don't last long. However, good PR is important and you can't say RW is not a good PR man!



Sort of, although Ratner, lets remember, used that same joke several times in several speeches before the 'fatal' one and his mistake was underestimating the power of the ever more influential (at that time) tabloid papers. I am not encouraging or expecting RW to be 100% honest, but I am not sure why the fans of both clubs don't work the third angle of talking up keeping both clubs. If they don't understand the likley outcome then possibly one set of fans may regret not thinking about that option!



I know a large proportion of the information on both stadium projects, whether you believe me or my sources or not, I do and this thread is just about that. You might be right, when it comes to all the other criteria I know very little but either way, Cas and Wakefield bids would appear to me to be stronger than both Salford and Crusaders, other than on the stadium front... would you not agree?

As I said, and said lots of time before if you care to search my posts, I find it hard to be overly critical of RW (and do regret being so above) but equally can I say, many Cas fans appear to have short memory's!!! It would not be hard to post half a dozen or more articles of RW claiming this that and the other, which subsequently all turned out to be half-truths. The ground is SOLD for one, would only be half the truth would it not?

When you accuse me of posting something that is detrimental to the 'club' you show your bias (which is fine BTW, don't have a problem with that) because you view this as putting Cas down over Wakefield! You see as someone who supports neither club, I don't think that, I think it sets the record straight and actual shows exactly what I think it does show... that Wakefield and Cas are at least 18 months away from being in new stadiums and that kicking either of them out now would be plain stupid and possibly jeopardise those projects. You and others are accusing me of being anti-Cas but you do that because my posts actual reveal a truer picture of the situation and quite frankly, you don't like the answer. Well, the truth often hurts!



You call my a hypocrite yet you say fans petitions should have nothing to do with the franchise process and say if they did, the system is a joke... but clearly think that the planning process is different and a petition is fine??? Hmmm, double standards?

I refer to my point above, what is Savills report going to say. I understand that as of only a few weeks ago, Savills had not spoken to lots of key individuals on both sides that they probably should have spoken to and that the RFL have sent Savills back to dig deeper at both clubs. What will Ian Thompson (they should really speak to him, if they haven't then the RFL and Savills are beyond stupid!) tell them if they speak to him... I know what I think he will say and I think that the answer is at best going to be you are both in the same boat and at worst, Cas are even longer away from a ground than Wakey... so what then?



OK, OK, let it go, you were right, I was wrong and regret it but I also refer to RW and previous media reports above!!!

Well, in July you will probably being doing one or the other and the really sad news is that so will Wakey fans. I just wish you would both be laughing, but unless you all take your heads out of the sand one of you will be crying. You just hope it's not you right.... but what if it is... will you regret not doing something different?

Bloody hell Fully, for an aspiring journalist, you can be daft sometimes.

I will say this again for the hard of understanding.... it can't be seen to be allowed to influence anyone at all on the planning committee. The petition is designed to influence people, you can use the media to bring it to light and make it public of course (so they will know via those outlets), but you can't demand WMDC to stick it front of a bunch of people who about 35% of whom serve another on a committee that it members have legal responsibilities to remain as impartial and objective as possible on! Opus and the club have publicly announced their intention to lodge a planning application on this site, the petition supports the principle of developing this land into a supermarket... of course it is planning issue you nugget!

Secondly, the area has been recommended to be re-designated in the LDF already mate, to a special development zone. That is just fine! Thirdly, you once again you show your ignorance of planning and the LDF, you can't designate land in the LDF for 'retail' is is not a category for lots of reasons I won't bore you with.

You are right, but this is the point that will take time to resolve. Your opinion is that it will, great, so is Opus and the club.... and probably, even mine (again, no plans, must reserve judgement). The planners, bless them, are not as convinced and think it might do partially or even completely the opposite. They have told Opus to go away and build a convincing case, telling them they sort of information they are going to need. This information will just take time to put together, retail impact assessment, traffic impact assessments, travel plans, city centre link plans and the list goes on and on. I am not putting down your reasons and the basis of your argument (looks familar eh, wonder were simialr arguments were used???

), far from it, this is what Opus and the club think and are trying to build a case about.



Hmmm, I have been accused by many on the other forum for only supporting Newmarket because I must be getting something from it, which is untrue, but now you want me to support something which I might get something from but have yet to see full details of to fully understand their proposals? Sorry, I am not a hypocrite! I suspect I will support it, but will tell you when I see the plans. As for the other forum, all those poster slagging me off supporting something for the same reasons they are all using to support the WR application.... clearly they are all getting something from it.... why else would they support it... irony overload from some posters!

As for Opus, do you think they think are really bothered about how long it takes? They are currently bothered because RW and the club is bothered, that is all. This is good news for Cas BTW, they are in this for the long-hall and whatever happens in July, this will go on until resolved, of that I have no doubts. RW is concerned about time, Opus are happy to help RW of course and will move things as quick as they can but if it takes 3 to 5 years and they win out in the end, which I also have no doubts they will, they won't care.

Please see Yorkcourt and Newmarket as a fine example!



Well, no, we did the Statements of Support, the club paid for the photocopying and postage. In answer to your question, we did the Statements because the petition that SWAG did came under some fire, some valid, some not and therefore we wanted to demonstrate that the NIMBY's were the minority. We did this, they still can't come close to matching our totals, we have more local people (within a three mile radius) supporting it as well. They are the minority, despite what they will tell you!

I have said already, I am not sure Savills report will be as glowing as you think it might be... not by a long way!

The answer is both... sorry, I don't support either club, so don't have to carry the same baggage here as you!

If the question was Leeds v Cas, or Leeds v Wakey, my answer would be Leeds... just like yours would be Cas.

BTW - Crusaders, if one has really got to go!

Hope that helps!

I would just like to thanks the mods for their insightful input into the debate... am I boring you? I am quite good at it I am afraid... bit like SmokeyTA!

You've said planning permission will eventually be granted but it's likely to be a long waiting game for Cas, surely better late than never will be looked at more positively than possibly never at all?

If Newmarket does get passed next year, then given that these things very rarely run to clockwork, Wakey themselves shouldn't be expecting to to be playing there until at least 2014 or 2015, surely?

I know you champion the Newmarket project, but maybe Richard Wright is not the only one partial to a bit of spin.

Predictable, your championing of Newmarket and doubts/aspersions over Glasshoughton prove otherwise, be aware that we can read your post history.

Knock yourself out mate - the search button is at the top there.

Have done already, there were some interesting posts on the Leeds board regarding the merits of Wakefield and Cas in SL.

Good points and difficult to sort of argue with them. I think Opus, like Yorkcourt (and other big developers) speculate of course, but they all do so by weighing up the odds and they are not averse to them being quite tights odds if the return is worth the investment. I always apply the 80/20 rule here, and I always say that 80% of the time developers win, but still 20% of the time they have to throw in the towel, normally after spending quite a bit of cash... but that is the game they are in.

I personally think that planning for a supermarket on WR will happen but you assume, maybe like I did somewhat with Newmarket, that it definitely will... it might be in the 20%! We have not seen the plans yet... now I know what the proposal is and even how big the supermarket is (it is not little!) but seeing the actual plan will tell me more.

You are right, in 12 months Newmarket gets a yes or a no, everyone thinks that 80/20 rules applies here as well, and it has an 80% chance of a yes, it could be no... but Cas's time frame is currently open-ended and it could equally be a no at some point in the future!

In direct answer to your question "surely better late than never will be looked at more positively than possibly never at all?" WR could also be possibly never at all as well, just like NM! I really, really don't think it will be BTW, but getting to any position for it to be granted will take time.

If Newmarket get the nod in the first half of 2012 (it should be first quarter BTW) then Wakefield should be playing at Newmarket from 2014. GH is in exactly the same position, planning on WR is needed by this time next year to get Cas in GH by 2014. If WR got planning before Christmas this year then you could hit 2013... but it is a huge IF!!!

Just as real example, lets look at Newmarket, from when the plans were first made publicly available in September 2009 it took another 6 months to get the application in and then13 months for it to go in front of the planning committee in October 2012! I personally think WR is at least 12 months from getting an outing at a planning committee meeting, so this time next year is my guess. I think they will release plans in August but it won't end up as a formal application until late this year, despite what they are saying!

[url=http://viewtopic.php?f=17&t=493633&start=30Before you ask...[/url

Some very interesting reading there from a man who purports not to favour one or the other...

I remember losing my rag about the conduct of some Cas posters about Newmarket, posting something on the Leeds board and then apologising for being an idiot and letting my emotions get the better of me. I haven't posted anything about the subject since then.

I have defended Wakefield when people have argued for it to be them and not Cas on the Leeds board and the VT and as such that ends up as me taking more of a devils advocate position, but I think that is the worst you could level at me. I do argue strongly in favour of Crusaders going if someone has to go as well.

Other than the post I refer to above, I don't regret anything else (I think!

) I have posted, so links to threads are fine by me... I expect it could be boring fro everyone but me and you though!

Is that the best you can do - hmmm, I think you screen name is very apt indeed! So my defending Wakefield over people arguing for them to go and Cas to stay and then me laying into the welsh folly is me being anti-Cas, despite me arguing to keep them in SL!!! Brilliant, any better ones?

This page is the best one BTW - [urlhttp://viewtopic.php?f=17&t=493633&start=75[/url

Why were Cas dragged into the argument in the first place when the argument was about the merits of Wakefield and Crusaders? Others on the Leeds board have noticed your pro-Wakefield stance so not really a question of my paranoia, more a question of you being a little more honest.

There is a difference between spinning a positive tale and blaming everyone else, the latter of which which you implied he would do in your post.



And when exactly did I mention Wakefield, or are you confusing me with someone else? Or is it just because of your inbuilt bias that you think I have any axe to grind with Wakefield's stadium plan or their SL franchise. You may find it difficult to believe, but I think that SL should have both clubs, that Cas vs Wakefield derbies are ones that get the pulse racing and no matter where either club is in the table, you can never call the result. Nothing wrong with Wakefield, although their trolls can be a pain in the butt at times.



So, do you always tell the truth, or do you hide things at times? Why not go round in a sandwich board every day with "There's no such thing as Santa" on it. Let's face it, the truth hurts, but at least we can then all get on and spend our money on more useful things than buying dirty great shedfuls of useless plastic tat at Christmas. So why don't you carry on and do that too?




Double standards? Not at all. The County Council's duty is to serve the PEOPLE of the County. Castleford Tigers RLFC and the Rugby Football League are NOT public bodies. They get their money from people who CHOOSE to pay them. The Council get their money from people who are FORCED to pay, so surely, the people who have no choice other than fund the council have a right to petition them to request the services that they want or need. ATEOTD, Cas Tigers have every right to pull out of the RFL and become a sports club affiliated with another body (Manningham to Bradford City, Wakefield Trinity from Union to Northern Union), and the fans are NOT obliged to pay Cas for their services. If they live in the area, they are obliged to pay the Council. That's why it's two completely different situations.



Heads out of the sand? I really don't know if you're for real here. I for one do not have my head in the sand. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that RW is not one to have his head in the sand. The fans have not got their heads in the sand - putting signatures together for a petition and trying to get the stadium process moving does not smack of complacency. I think we all know that this is going to be a tricky and involved process, but as a small town, no sugar daddy backer and in the middle of a recession it was never going to be easy.