I think we may be heading for a Brexit extension.
Court papers have shown that this will be applied for on 17th October, which doesn't give Boris too much wiggle room.
Therefore, everything going on now is posturing in anticipation of a General Election.

Will Boris "do or die" Johnson be ousted, for failing his main objective or, was "do or die" just more bluster from "chicken" Boris.
I dont think he will get the gong for the shortest term as Prime Minister but, up to now, he's been the least effective.

Played 6 lost 6 but the game hasn't ended yet

For those of us with left of centre politics, we really have to hope that Farage & Boris nullify each other as Labor are more impotent than an Eskimo on a cold day.

True colours shining through from vote leave, with the following tweet aimed directly at Angela Merkel:

“We didn’t win two world wars to be pushed around by a Kraut.”

It's since been taken down but it does seem to show what they really think.
I'm just proud that 17million + want to side with them

Yeah it ranks alongside the "special place in hell" comment about anyone who voted to leave. I'm so proud of the 15.8 million who side with that if we're playing the guilt by association game.

That would be a passable bit of whataboutery, if it were even remotely true.

What he actually said was: "I've been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted Brexit, without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely."

So ya know - nil points.

I agree but Cameron never believed he would lose, then he simply abdicated.

Its obvious to everyone - why would the EU give us a deal and why would the MPs who on the whole don't want to leave fight for a deal. The Benn act effectively stops the EU even working on a deal because they believe an extension is coming - it does beg the question as to which side parliament is really on.

Then you have Labour's farcical position - we will do a deal with the EU - which in effect is remain to all intents and purposes - and then we will campaign to remain i.e. campaign against their own deal - so effectively what Labour are offering is remain but they are a democratic party (sic) and they will have a debate about which version of remain they will back - madness.

The question still remains what happens if we have another referendum and we again vote to leave? We originally voted to go in to enable smoother trade with the EU not to be part of a political super state over which we have very little influence.

Quote ="Sal Paradise"I agree but Cameron never believed he would lose, then he simply abdicated. Its obvious to everyone - why would the EU give us a deal and why would the MPs who on the whole don't want to leave fight for a deal. The Benn act effectively stops the EU even working on a deal because they believe an extension is coming - it does beg the question as to which side parliament is really on. Then you have Labour's farcical position - we will do a deal with the EU - which in effect is remain to all intents and purposes - and then we will campaign to remain i.e. campaign against their own deal - so effectively what Labour are offering is remain but they are a democratic party (sic) and they will have a debate about which version of remain they will back - madness. The question still remains what happens if we have another referendum and we again vote to leave? We originally voted to go in to enable smoother trade with the EU not to be part of a political super state over which we have very little influence.'" How can you possibly bemoan the actions of Parliament. It is THE kingpin of everything that Brexit stands for. A reminder for you: www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html Maybe you should look up the numerous blatant lies and false promises while you are at it, they are absolutely hilarious. I'm sure that you, along with everyone else who voted leave, wasn't taken in by any of it

Quote ="Sal Paradise"I agree but Cameron never believed he would lose, then he simply abdicated. Its obvious to everyone - why would the EU give us a deal and why would the MPs who on the whole don't want to leave fight for a deal. The Benn act effectively stops the EU even working on a deal because they believe an extension is coming - it does beg the question as to which side parliament is really on. Then you have Labour's farcical position - we will do a deal with the EU - which in effect is remain to all intents and purposes - and then we will campaign to remain i.e. campaign against their own deal - so effectively what Labour are offering is remain but they are a democratic party (sic) and they will have a debate about which version of remain they will back - madness. The question still remains what happens if we have another referendum and we again vote to leave? We originally voted to go in to enable smoother trade with the EU not to be part of a political super state over which we have very little influence.'" How can you possibly bemoan the actions of Parliament. It is THE kingpin of everything that Brexit stands for. A reminder for you: www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html Maybe you should look up the numerous blatant lies and false promises while you are at it, they are absolutely hilarious. I'm sure that you, along with everyone else who voted leave, wasn't taken in by any of it

That's not at all Labour's position, or even close to it; they have said they would seek an extension, then negotiate the best deal they could with the EU, and put that, and Remain, to a PV - and enact the result. It literally couldn't be simpler.

The need of the media, and pillocks, for MP's and political parties to have a binary, hive mind about this issue, which has proven for 3 years to be entirely non-binary and multi-faceted, demonstrates the depths that our political discourse has sunk to; fuelled by the media acting as stenographers for the worst kind of charlatans our political class has ever produced.

Quote ="wrencat1873"How can you possibly bemoan the actions of Parliament. It is THE kingpin of everything that Brexit stands for. A reminder for you: www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html Maybe you should look up the numerous blatant lies and false promises while you are at it, they are absolutely hilarious. I'm sure that you, along with everyone else who voted leave, wasn't taken in by any of it '" Are you for real - I don't think so - Parliament has done everything it can to block Brexit and that includes the speaker. My view has always been the only way to leave is no deal with all the short term calamitous consequences. We differ on whether this is right thing - if it were only a trading relationship that would be ideal to stay in but its not. The disconnect as you well know is the inability to accept the vote by MPs - guarantee we would not be in the position if we had voted to remain by a slender majority.

Quote ="wrencat1873"How can you possibly bemoan the actions of Parliament. It is THE kingpin of everything that Brexit stands for. A reminder for you: www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html Maybe you should look up the numerous blatant lies and false promises while you are at it, they are absolutely hilarious. I'm sure that you, along with everyone else who voted leave, wasn't taken in by any of it '" Are you for real - I don't think so - Parliament has done everything it can to block Brexit and that includes the speaker. My view has always been the only way to leave is no deal with all the short term calamitous consequences. We differ on whether this is right thing - if it were only a trading relationship that would be ideal to stay in but its not. The disconnect as you well know is the inability to accept the vote by MPs - guarantee we would not be in the position if we had voted to remain by a slender majority.

You've asked that a number of times & it has been answered. Are you going to keep asking until you get the answer you like......

Sensationalist Daily Mail cliche garbage. Yet you are happy being ruled by an Eton elite with a lying, cheating, woman assaulting, narcissistic PM who wasn't elected by the people. We have a 1/28th say in the EU, the same as everyone else.

Name the last PM to be elected by the public... I'll put the slow cooker on whilst I await a response.

Was it Bobby Walpole?

Well, the answer is Mrs Theresa May, although she did need help from the DUP to be able to form a government.
You do remember the "strong and stable" election, dont you ?

Mind you, compared to Boris, her government was strong and stable

Quote ="Sal Paradise"Are you for real - I don't think so - Parliament has done everything it can to block Brexit and that includes the speaker. My view has always been the only way to leave is no deal with all the short term calamitous consequences. We differ on whether this is right thing - if it were only a trading relationship that would be ideal to stay in but its not. The disconnect as you well know is the inability to accept the vote by MPs - guarantee we would not be in the position if we had voted to remain by a slender majority.'" Obviously there is a group of MPs who want to remain, but they are in a minority. Maybe about 114, based on the vote to trigger article 50. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38833883 That was before the last election, but give or take. The problem is that those who are happy or at least willing to Leave are spread across the spectrum of soft through hard to the impossibilist/no deal approach of the ERG, and completely unable or unwilling to accept anything other than their own specific version that they all believe 17.4 million voters endorsed. The problem isn’t remainers, the problem is the Leave coalition breaking down and failing to unite behind a single coherent position. And everybody kinda forgot about Northern Ireland because it hadn’t been on the news for 20 years - making up for lost time now though, innit?

Quote ="Sal Paradise"Are you for real - I don't think so - Parliament has done everything it can to block Brexit and that includes the speaker. My view has always been the only way to leave is no deal with all the short term calamitous consequences. We differ on whether this is right thing - if it were only a trading relationship that would be ideal to stay in but its not. The disconnect as you well know is the inability to accept the vote by MPs - guarantee we would not be in the position if we had voted to remain by a slender majority.'" Obviously there is a group of MPs who want to remain, but they are in a minority. Maybe about 114, based on the vote to trigger article 50. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38833883 That was before the last election, but give or take. The problem is that those who are happy or at least willing to Leave are spread across the spectrum of soft through hard to the impossibilist/no deal approach of the ERG, and completely unable or unwilling to accept anything other than their own specific version that they all believe 17.4 million voters endorsed. The problem isn’t remainers, the problem is the Leave coalition breaking down and failing to unite behind a single coherent position. And everybody kinda forgot about Northern Ireland because it hadn’t been on the news for 20 years - making up for lost time now though, innit?

Of course I'm for real.
The "leave" campaign was all for our parliament making ALL of the rules.
Remember, the referendum was "leave" or "remain" and the campaign, although fought with the tag line "no deal" is better than a bad deal, the plan was to get a deal, which again, if you remember was going to be oh so easy

and the problem has been that, unfortunately, any good deal has proved far from easy.
The fact that the referendum was not "fought" along party political lines certainly hasn't helped, with different factions of "leave" making their own, very different promises, many of which were simply untrue from the start and our MP's are charged with getting any deal through Parliament.

As we are now, with certain "truths" having been realised, public opinion had changed slightly in favour of remain, and as such, our MP's are in an even more difficult position.
However, right at the bottom of all this seems to be the island of Ireland and to achieve Brexit and honour The Good Friday Agreement appears to be impossible.
Sitting in England, it would be easy to say, sod 'em, we voted "leave" but, NOBODY, least of all our politicians, want a return to the troubles that blighted the 1970's and 80's, especially as it's "only a trade deal" - the latest line used by "leave".
How crazy would it be to have another wave of terrorism over a drive to secure a new trade deal ??

Of course, it's not just a trade deal, as, all of our freedom's are eroded following Brexit.

I think our fishy friend is trying to be smart (infinite monkey theorem) but no PM is technically elected by the people. The leader of the biggest party is invited by the Queen to be PM.

Read slowly, for the billionth time: WE ARE ONLY STILL IN THE EU BECAUSE THE HARDEST BREXITEERS VOTED AGAINST THE CONSERVATIVE DEAL.

Labour were never going to vote for such a deal which didn't meet their red lines, and nor should they have given May decided to go for a rather hard version of Brexit. By the time she started trying to get them on board it was too late for her politically.

Yay, insults (attempted, again).

We have NEVER VOTED FOR A PM, like we have never voted for the House of Lords, the Supreme Court, in fact, we don't actually vote for much, and when we do, it gets ignored.

Oh god change the record. I'll repeat pretty much what I said to you the last time you reeled this irrelevant claptrap out: All you're trying to do is absolve the opposition from any responsibility in enacting the result of the referendum.

The opposite benches voted to hold a referendum, they voted for Article 50, they campaigned on leave manifestos, they promised to "honour and respect" the result. Approx 150 Labour constituencies voted to leave, yet only around 5 Labour MPs (that's 3% of MPs "representing" leave constituencies) have chosen to honour that vote. Again and again they act to hinder and delay, preferring to damage the government rather than enact the referendum. They are a hypocritical lying disgrace.

Yes, the ERG are as guilty as anyone, but at least they're upfront about their intentions, and frankly they're only small in number. Just 34 Tories voted against the deal last time alongside 234 Labour + 76 others.

Quote ="Mild Rover"Obviously there is a group of MPs who want to remain, but they are in a minority. Maybe about 114, based on the vote to trigger article 50. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38833883 That was before the last election, but give or take. The problem is that those who are happy or at least willing to Leave are spread across the spectrum of soft through hard to the impossibilist/no deal approach of the ERG, and completely unable or unwilling to accept anything other than their own specific version that they all believe 17.4 million voters endorsed. The problem isn’t remainers, the problem is the Leave coalition breaking down and failing to unite behind a single coherent position. And everybody kinda forgot about Northern Ireland because it hadn’t been on the news for 20 years - making up for lost time now though, innit?'" Remain leaning MPs are far more than 114 - there are 50 SNP for a start so let's be realistic - just because they voted to trigger article 50 doesn't mean they supported leave. David Lammy is one example, Hilary Benn, Ken Clarke another etc. As a country we shouldn't let a few idiots in Ireland and the inability of the Irish governments to control their citizens. The troubles in the end were simply a cover for organised crime which provided arms to other organised criminals. This still goes on but the lack of a border makes it even easier. The problem is anything but no deal basically leaves you in and you trade independence for trade access to Europe. As I said before we went into Europe to smooth trade what has happened is we are now controlled by a super state run by the unelected such as Barnier, Tusk and Jonkers. Labour are simply going to offer you two versions of remain.

Quote ="Mild Rover"Obviously there is a group of MPs who want to remain, but they are in a minority. Maybe about 114, based on the vote to trigger article 50. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38833883 That was before the last election, but give or take. The problem is that those who are happy or at least willing to Leave are spread across the spectrum of soft through hard to the impossibilist/no deal approach of the ERG, and completely unable or unwilling to accept anything other than their own specific version that they all believe 17.4 million voters endorsed. The problem isn’t remainers, the problem is the Leave coalition breaking down and failing to unite behind a single coherent position. And everybody kinda forgot about Northern Ireland because it hadn’t been on the news for 20 years - making up for lost time now though, innit?'" Remain leaning MPs are far more than 114 - there are 50 SNP for a start so let's be realistic - just because they voted to trigger article 50 doesn't mean they supported leave. David Lammy is one example, Hilary Benn, Ken Clarke another etc. As a country we shouldn't let a few idiots in Ireland and the inability of the Irish governments to control their citizens. The troubles in the end were simply a cover for organised crime which provided arms to other organised criminals. This still goes on but the lack of a border makes it even easier. The problem is anything but no deal basically leaves you in and you trade independence for trade access to Europe. As I said before we went into Europe to smooth trade what has happened is we are now controlled by a super state run by the unelected such as Barnier, Tusk and Jonkers. Labour are simply going to offer you two versions of remain.

Please - the ERG were a tiny minority compared to Labour and SNP who voted against the withdrawl agreement. Stop talking clap trap as usual

A soft Brexit is a worse option than remain - everybody knows that - Labour know it - they will negotiate a soft Brexit and then campaign against it - happy days!!

Quote ="Mild Rover"Obviously there is a group of MPs who want to remain, but they are in a minority. Maybe about 114, based on the vote to trigger article 50. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38833883 That was before the last election, but give or take. The problem is that those who are happy or at least willing to Leave are spread across the spectrum of soft through hard to the impossibilist/no deal approach of the ERG, and completely unable or unwilling to accept anything other than their own specific version that they all believe 17.4 million voters endorsed. The problem isn’t remainers, the problem is the Leave coalition breaking down and failing to unite behind a single coherent position. And everybody kinda forgot about Northern Ireland because it hadn’t been on the news for 20 years - making up for lost time now though, innit?'" Oh come on, you're normally a good and reasonable poster but that's a simply terrible source for your argument. In 2016 no-one expected Leave to win. They wanted to shut Farage up and they all wanted to appear to be democratic and open. That's why they voted for the referendum. When they lost and it came to A50 they all wanted to appear to be honourable and democratic, having promised repeatedly to "honour and respect" the result. At that time and in that political climate they could not be seen to be rejecting the referendum. Most of them voted for A50 through gritted teeth, meanwhile plotting to do their best to reverse the whole thing. As we have seen. It's widely accepted over 70% of MPs voted remain. The Press Association polled 650 MPs ahead of the referendum: - 480 MPs said they intended to vote Remain (184 Tories, 218 Labour + the rest) - 159 MPs said they would be voting Leave (139 Tories, 11 Labour + the rest) - 11 MPs were undeclared Since then the 'Leave' parties have increased their share of seats. So while the ERG have been a small gremlin in the process, Remainers are very much the problem. They voted for the referendum, they voted for A50, they ALL promised to respect the result, 150 Labour MPs even represent Leave constituencies, yet they simply cannot bring themselves to carry Brexit through or get away from their true colours: Remain.

Quote ="Mild Rover"Obviously there is a group of MPs who want to remain, but they are in a minority. Maybe about 114, based on the vote to trigger article 50. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38833883 That was before the last election, but give or take. The problem is that those who are happy or at least willing to Leave are spread across the spectrum of soft through hard to the impossibilist/no deal approach of the ERG, and completely unable or unwilling to accept anything other than their own specific version that they all believe 17.4 million voters endorsed. The problem isn’t remainers, the problem is the Leave coalition breaking down and failing to unite behind a single coherent position. And everybody kinda forgot about Northern Ireland because it hadn’t been on the news for 20 years - making up for lost time now though, innit?'" Oh come on, you're normally a good and reasonable poster but that's a simply terrible source for your argument. In 2016 no-one expected Leave to win. They wanted to shut Farage up and they all wanted to appear to be democratic and open. That's why they voted for the referendum. When they lost and it came to A50 they all wanted to appear to be honourable and democratic, having promised repeatedly to "honour and respect" the result. At that time and in that political climate they could not be seen to be rejecting the referendum. Most of them voted for A50 through gritted teeth, meanwhile plotting to do their best to reverse the whole thing. As we have seen. It's widely accepted over 70% of MPs voted remain. The Press Association polled 650 MPs ahead of the referendum: - 480 MPs said they intended to vote Remain (184 Tories, 218 Labour + the rest) - 159 MPs said they would be voting Leave (139 Tories, 11 Labour + the rest) - 11 MPs were undeclared Since then the 'Leave' parties have increased their share of seats. So while the ERG have been a small gremlin in the process, Remainers are very much the problem. They voted for the referendum, they voted for A50, they ALL promised to respect the result, 150 Labour MPs even represent Leave constituencies, yet they simply cannot bring themselves to carry Brexit through or get away from their true colours: Remain.

It's not the opposition's responsibility to enact the government's policies. A typical denial of responsibility by Brexiteers.
If the Tories had wanted opposition support they should have negotiated a less Tory Brexit and incorporated some of Labour's red lines. It's not like Corbyn is a huge fan of the EU, it would have been pretty easy to get a bipartisan bill into the House. But the Tories put party over country yet again - the root cause of why we're in this huge mess in the first place.

All the Tories expected was Labour to do what they promised in their manifesto - a soft Brexit labour stylee is remain under another name, no realistic deal that included all Labour's red lines was ever going to get through the house, they knew that all they really wanted was to remain and they were going to make leaving as hard as possible - you know it, I know it and all the MPs know it - a deal passing all Labour's red lines is so good Labour are going to campaign against it - go figure

I think there’s a risk that the prospect of no deal starts to shift the Overton window, making May’s position seem like something other than a very hard Brexit. At this point, personally i’d let it pass by hypothetically abstaining. But it was always going to be a big ask to get Labour to dip the their metaphorical hand in the metaphorical blood they’d had no part in spilling. Or look gormless or opportunistic in their passivity. Just as, in fairness, it would have been very difficult for May to strike a cross-party deal. Unlike me they have/had to worry about the day after, politically.

The truth is, there’s no majority in parliament or the country for any single option. And they’re all pretty rotten, from the denial of democracy, through the tokenistic and the unworkable to the worryingly economically damaging.

I don’t think I can make a positive case for any course of action - my preference is based on least worst. I don’t know if it is that the whole mess has just finally exhausted the well of dark humour, or if Boris Johnson’s depressingly predictable floundering and increasing ill humour is glumming me out, but it does seem pretty hopeless. I mean, when your white knight is Jeremy Corbyn, it is a rum do.

), and no-deal isn’t remotely Brexit as advertised.