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| Quote ="Chris28"That's similar to what people said at the last election about the Lib Dems'"
The aim then, I think, being electoral reform.
Looking at their policies, though, would you really see the Greens clambering into bed with the Tories?
On the other hand, they might, if they had a big leap forward, be able to form a coalition with Labour. Which would be interesting. |
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A slight move away from the core subject: [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22798200government wants to have ex-soldiers trained as teachers[/url (skipping the usual teacher training process, which rather makes a mockery of claims it's not tough enough).
But: "Shadow education secretary Stephen Twigg said Labour supported re-training troops as teachers but said the government had been too slow to do it."
After Michael Portillo lost his seat, the [iMorning Star[/i lobby correspondent at the time observed that Twigg was more right-wing than his predecessor. Looking at the situation we're currently in, it's not difficulty to see the truth of that, and more widely than Mike was describing at the time.
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| Quote ="El Barbudo"He's right about the stimulus ... not sure about the billions.
But even the IMF reckon that the UK could borrow 10bn for growth with little impact ... but oooh no, borrowing is what got us into this mess (total rubbish, the banks got us where we are) and we mustn't borrow ... ever.'"
But we wouldn't be borrowing anything at all  , we'd be selling things, government bonds to be exact. 50-99 year bonds at 3% to cover the cost of construction, suitable land is already owned by central and local government. If there's not enough available, then we simply allow local government to purchase agricultural land, give itself planning permission and flog half off to private developers, that should cover the construction of the council houses.
The means are there, it's only the political will that's absent |
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| Quote ="Mintball"The aim then, I think, being electoral reform.'"
From a personal perspective, I felt (at that point) that the LDs did offer something slightly different, as well as the above, to the other 2 main parties. At the end of the day though, many people apparently didn't follow through on the opinion poll thoughts and we all know what happened. Sell out city. Unfortunately, schmucko supremo here fell for it 
Quote Looking at their policies, though, would you really see the Greens clambering into bed with the Tories?
On the other hand, they might, if they had a big leap forward, be able to form a coalition with Labour. Which would be interesting.'"
On the former, not a chance, but like you, if Labour move away from their current blue tinted shtick, the latter would be interesting. |
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| Quote ="cod'ead"But we wouldn't be borrowing anything at all
, we'd be selling things, government bonds to be exact. 50-99 year bonds at 3% to cover the cost of construction, suitable land is already owned by central and local government. If there's not enough available, then we simply allow local government to purchase agricultural land, give itself planning permission and flog half off to private developers, that should cover the construction of the council houses.
The means are there, it's only the political will that's absent'"
Stop talking sense. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"In which case, what happens if everyone who says and believes this actually votes Green, say?'"
That's probably what I'll end up doing. |
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Milliband's speech was actually ok.
Looks like he has finally realised that Labour need some economic credibility. Just saying they will reverse tory policies when there will be no money to do so makes him sound silly.
Also welfare reform is popular, it is sensible to get on that bandwagon.
I also like the idea that people who have worked for a long time and find themselves unemployed will get a higher rate of benefits than those that have never worked.
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| Quote ="Ajw71"... Looks like he has finally realised that Labour need some economic credibility...'"
The argument against that is that copying a government that has no "economic credibility" – that is failing on the specific, stated points that the Chancellor laid out as key – is hardly conducive to any credibility. |
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There are several very key points in his speech that are deservedly highlighted by him but then not addressed with a solution, only one of which is...
[i“Thirty years ago for every £100 pounds we spent on housing, £80 was invested in bricks and mortar and £20 was spent on housing benefit. Today, for every £100 we spend on housing, just £5 is invested in bricks and mortar and £95 goes on housing benefit.”[/i
As pointed out in that article the reason for the stat is the move by all flavours of government away from local authority housing ("council houses"icon_wink.gif to the paying of housing benefit to private organisations and individual private landlords and inevitably there will be a basic human flaw and a very basic capitalist flaw in this switch of policy - the need to make profit from such housing provision, worse still, the need to increase that profit year on year in order to make it viable for more investors to come on board.
I'm of a vintage and with experience in the building trade to remember the days 30 years and more (which Milliband has only read about in text books) when huge investment was made in local authority housing but also, and just as importantly, in private, not-for-profit, housing association stock - my area of experience was the north east of England where, as I've mentioned before, the company I worked for were involved in the new-build and refurbishment of tens of thousands of housing units, even through what was then the worst recession in living history.
The money for that work, which involved tens of thousands of jobs in just that small area, was provided through sheer political will, nothing else required under both Labour and especially a very right wing Conservative government and I simply refuse to believe that such a will could not be re-implemented right now, indeed if such a thing happened tomorrow it may just save Camerons neck in two years time.
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There are several very key points in his speech that are deservedly highlighted by him but then not addressed with a solution, only one of which is...
[i“Thirty years ago for every £100 pounds we spent on housing, £80 was invested in bricks and mortar and £20 was spent on housing benefit. Today, for every £100 we spend on housing, just £5 is invested in bricks and mortar and £95 goes on housing benefit.”[/i
As pointed out in that article the reason for the stat is the move by all flavours of government away from local authority housing ("council houses"icon_wink.gif to the paying of housing benefit to private organisations and individual private landlords and inevitably there will be a basic human flaw and a very basic capitalist flaw in this switch of policy - the need to make profit from such housing provision, worse still, the need to increase that profit year on year in order to make it viable for more investors to come on board.
I'm of a vintage and with experience in the building trade to remember the days 30 years and more (which Milliband has only read about in text books) when huge investment was made in local authority housing but also, and just as importantly, in private, not-for-profit, housing association stock - my area of experience was the north east of England where, as I've mentioned before, the company I worked for were involved in the new-build and refurbishment of tens of thousands of housing units, even through what was then the worst recession in living history.
The money for that work, which involved tens of thousands of jobs in just that small area, was provided through sheer political will, nothing else required under both Labour and especially a very right wing Conservative government and I simply refuse to believe that such a will could not be re-implemented right now, indeed if such a thing happened tomorrow it may just save Camerons neck in two years time.
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| Quote ="Ajw71"
Looks like he has finally realised that Labour need some economic credibility...'"
You are confusing economic credibility with the perception of economic credibilty.
They are not the same thing.
The Tory message about it all being Gordon Brown's fault is erroneous and at best disingenuous.
Quote ="Ajw71"
…Just saying they will reverse tory policies when there will be no money to do so makes him sound silly.'"
It would ... but he never has said that.
Quote ="Ajw71" Also welfare reform is popular, it is sensible to get on that bandwagon...'"
This sums up a lot of what is wrong with the public's engagement with politics.
When people would rather have bandwagon politicians than someone with genuine conviction, we would be in very poor situation. |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"[urlhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/29/leeds-council-bedroom-tax-solution[/url
Fairly typically though you only have to point a reporters notebook underneath a Tory politicians nose for a snide comment to be issued forth, step forward Councillor Barry Anderson ""[iIt does not solve the core of the problem. There needs to more advice for people on housing benefits … hardworking, good tenants may lose out.[/i" Barry wouldn't be suggesting that those on housing benefit are NOT hardworking good tenants would he, surely no-one would make such a wild assumption ?'"
Perhaps Barry should have provided a [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2339340/Dont-cut-32-000-benefits-Unemployed-mother-seven-says-living-just-2-000-month-leave-family-homeless.htmllink[/url to illustrate his point better? |
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| Quote ="rumpelstiltskin"Perhaps Barry should have provided a [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2339340/Dont-cut-32-000-benefits-Unemployed-mother-seven-says-living-just-2-000-month-leave-family-homeless.htmllink[/url to illustrate his point better?'"
Oh sure, you can always find a small number of of individuals who are apparently shafting the system - I say apparently because upon closer inspection you see that the individual concerned is renting private accommodation because her local authority is unable to find her a suitable home - thats your first problem right there.
The father of six of her children is allegedly not paying her any child support at all - thats your second problem right there.
Look at the breakdown of her "benefits" and you'll see that there is nothing there that could be perceived as "scrounging" or "shirking", indeed if she got her act together and worked for a small number of hours a week she'd probably find that she'd qualify for Working Tax Credits too.
But of course its just so much simpler when you can vilify the individual person instead and use words like "hardworking good tenants" to turn groups against each other. |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"Oh sure, you can always find a small number of of individuals who are apparently shafting the system - I say apparently because upon closer inspection you see that the individual concerned is renting private accommodation because her local authority is unable to find her a suitable home - thats your first problem right there.
The father of six of her children is allegedly not paying her any child support at all - thats your second problem right there.
Look at the breakdown of her "benefits" and you'll see that there is nothing there that could be perceived as "scrounging" or "shirking", indeed if she got her act together and worked for a small number of hours a week she'd probably find that she'd qualify for Working Tax Credits too.
But of course its just so much simpler when you can vilify the individual person instead and use words like "hardworking good tenants" to turn groups against each other.'"
Unfortunately there are many who are too lazy or stupid to attempt to strip off the lacquered veneers.
They are content at being outraged without any intention of digging or delving deeper, it just doesn't suit them.
Sad but very true. |
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| Quote ="WIZEB"Unfortunately there are many who are too lazy or stupid to attempt to strip off the lacquered veneers.
They are content at being outraged without any intention of digging or delving deeper, it just doesn't suit them.
Sad but very true.'"
And unfortunately the lazy and stupid include local councilors and MP's too - aided and abetted by newspaper editors. |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"And unfortunately the lazy and stupid include local councilors and MP's too - aided and abetted by newspaper editors.'"
Indeed.
I'm by no means limiting it to the hard of thinking on the Sin Bin.  |
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Just to update you all – Barry has not further replied to my tweeted questions, since responding with a curt 'yes' to my question of whether he knoew that 80% plus of all housing benefit is paid to people who are in work.
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"Oh sure, you can always find a small number of of individuals who are apparently shafting the system - I say apparently because upon closer inspection you see that the individual concerned is renting private accommodation because her local authority is unable to find her a suitable home - thats your first problem right there.'"
I think you'll find it's the good ol" British taxpayer who is paying the rent on this six bedroomed property, not this workshy, but extremely fertile individual. I would hope that her local council could offer a perfectly adequate 4 bedroomed house from their local stock, or provide an explanation as to why she hasn't been offered one.
Quote
The father of six of her children is allegedly not paying her any child support at all - thats your second problem right there.'"
More of a CSA problem I would think.
Quote Look at the breakdown of her "benefits" and you'll see that there is nothing there that could be perceived as "scrounging" or "shirking", indeed if she got her act together and worked for a small number of hours a week she'd probably find that she'd qualify for Working Tax Credits too.'"
So, in Chicken World, reaching the age of 37 without contributing anything into the system via a job, is not considered as scrounging or shirking? How odd. I'll admit, with seven kids she hasn't neglected that side of her contribution to british society, but are you seriously suggesting there is any danger of her being vertical long enough to to hold down a job? What would you have to earn to bring home a similar salary that matched her benefits, or bettered them to provide a bit of encouragement? 45k....50K? And her qualifications for that, is what?
Quote But of course its just so much simpler when you can vilify the individual person instead and use words like "hardworking good tenants" to turn groups against each other.'"
Vilify is a tad emotive, but in any case, why should those hardworking good tenants who make up 80 percent of claimants, not feel ticked off when they read about cases like above? Or hear the banal nonsense quoted in defence of the current benefit set up? |
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| Quote ="rumpelstiltskin"I think you'll find it's the good ol" British taxpayer who is paying the rent on this six bedroomed property, not this workshy, but extremely fertile individual. I would hope that her local council could offer a perfectly adequate 4 bedroomed house from their local stock, or provide an explanation as to why she hasn't been offered one. '"
Have you met her? If not, how do you know she is "workshy"? Just because she hasn't worked in 20 years doesn't imply she is.
Quote More of a CSA problem I would think.'"
So still a problem though
Quote So, in Chicken World, reaching the age of 37 without contributing anything into the system via a job, is not considered as scrounging or shirking? How odd. I'll admit, with seven kids she hasn't neglected that side of her contribution to british society, but are you seriously suggesting there is any danger of her being vertical long enough to to hold down a job? What would you have to earn to bring home a similar salary that matched her benefits, or bettered them to provide a bit of encouragement? 45k....50K? And her qualifications for that, is what?'"
In Rumpel World, not knowing the first thing about someone appears to give you a licence to describe someone as shirking or scrounging. Are you a Tory Minister by any chance?
Quote Vilify is a tad emotive, but in any case, why should those hardworking good tenants who make up 80 percent of claimants, not feel ticked off when they read about cases like above? Or hear the banal nonsense quoted in defence of the current benefit set up?'"
I assume you've done a poll of these 80% of tenants to confirm they are hardworking and are ticked off by this? |
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| Quote ="rumpelstiltskin"... More of a CSA problem I would think...'"
Personal responsibility is so passé, yes? |
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| Quote ="rumpelstiltskin"I think you'll find it's the good ol" British taxpayer who is paying the rent on this six bedroomed property, not this workshy, but extremely fertile individual. I would hope that her local council could offer a perfectly adequate 4 bedroomed house from their local stock, or provide an explanation as to why she hasn't been offered one.'"
I think you'll find that I'm perfectly aware of that, which is why I highlighted the fact and mentioned that it appears in the breakdown of her monthly payment, the fact that the council can't provide housing for her is not unusual, the fact that they then have to resort to private accommodation, more than likely at an inflated rate, is also not unusual.
If the facts of the report are to be believed then she'll potentially be facing a penalty under the "bedroom tax" as at least six of those kids should be shared across three of the bedrooms.
Quote So, in Chicken World, reaching the age of 37 without contributing anything into the system via a job, is not considered as scrounging or shirking? How odd. I'll admit, with seven kids she hasn't neglected that side of her contribution to british society, but are you seriously suggesting there is any danger of her being vertical long enough to to hold down a job? What would you have to earn to bring home a similar salary that matched her benefits, or bettered them to provide a bit of encouragement? 45k....50K? And her qualifications for that, is what?
Vilify is a tad emotive, but in any case, why should those hardworking good tenants who make up 80 percent of claimants, not feel ticked off when they read about cases like above? Or hear the banal nonsense quoted in defence of the current benefit set up?'"
Again I hesitate to use this woman's specific case to either defend or attack her, I don't know her but I'll assume that because she has allowed her photo to be used then she has at least been interviewed by a reporter and to be fair to the Mail its not a complete hatchet job on her, you however seem perfectly happy to label her as one of Camerons Shirkers Army ?
Lets not refer to her specifically but instead take an example of a married female with a number of children who chooses to stay and home and raise those children rather than working, there are no reports that her kids are feral or anything other than normal well behaved kids, so she's pretty much the Tory blueprint for the "perfect wife", one who is prepared to set aside ambition and career in order to be a home-maker, mother and role model to her children.
Then her husband abandons her and the children and fails to contribute to their upbringing, she loses the family home and has to seek social housing from the local council and fall back on social security to simply survive.
What is she now ? |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"I think you'll find that I'm perfectly aware of that, which is why I highlighted the fact and mentioned that it appears in the breakdown of her monthly payment, the fact that the council can't provide housing for her is not unusual, the fact that they then have to resort to private accommodation, more than likely at an inflated rate, is also not unusual.
If the facts of the report are to be believed then she'll potentially be facing a penalty under the "bedroom tax" as at least six of those kids should be shared across three of the bedrooms.
Again I hesitate to use this woman's specific case to either defend or attack her, I don't know her but I'll assume that because she has allowed her photo to be used then she has at least been interviewed by a reporter and to be fair to the Mail its not a complete hatchet job on her, you however seem perfectly happy to label her as one of Camerons Shirkers Army ?
Lets not refer to her specifically but instead take an example of a married female with a number of children who chooses to stay and home and raise those children rather than working, there are no reports that her kids are feral or anything other than normal well behaved kids, so she's pretty much the Tory blueprint for the "perfect wife", one who is prepared to set aside ambition and career in order to be a home-maker, mother and role model to her children.
Then her husband abandons her and the children and fails to contribute to their upbringing, she loses the family home and has to seek social housing from the local council and fall back on social security to simply survive.
What is she now ?'"
Under this system? Set up for life. Apparently. |
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| Quote ="rumpelstiltskin"Under this system? Set up for life. Apparently.'"
And your solution ? |
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| Quote ="rumpelstiltskin"Under this system? Set up for life. Apparently.'"
I take it that the caring part of you (even hypothetically) got lonely and went away? |
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, we'd be selling things, government bonds to be exact. 50-99 year bonds at 3% to cover the cost of construction, suitable land is already owned by central and local government. If there's not enough available, then we simply allow local government to purchase agricultural land, give itself planning permission and flog half off to private developers, that should cover the construction of the council houses.
