You do realise this could quite easily become a "What have the Romans ever done for us" moment. I'll start with the biggest hospital building programme in the history of the NHS.

You mean PFI and the massive ongoing cost associated?

Record investment in the NHS, schools and the police.
Introduction of the National Minimum Wage and the New Deal.
Devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland
Good Friday Agreement.
Introducing Civil Partnerships, the Equality Act, the Human Rights Act.
Cancelled debt for the world’s poorest countries.
World’s first Climate Change Act.
Allowed stupid people to continue to vote.

But apart from all that, basically nothing right?

Well I ask myself whether when my family members are being treated in the state of the art Cancer facility at St James's in Leeds, I should focus on the amazing facility or the funding methodology. Early PFI was crap and created an unhelpful debt burden, but you have to weigh that up against the huge overhaul of aging infrastructure it helped deliver.

Your point by point dismissal of everything Tigertot wrote is extreme. Even a Tory MP could begrudgingly point to a handful of positive achievements of the Blair and Brown years. You don't HAVE to adopt such an extreme position. It makes it very hard to engage you in any type of debate.

Do not be silly.

Self-awareness. It's a start.

I thought i would just fill the list out a little.

1. Longest period of sustained low inflation since the 60s.

2. Low mortgage rates.

3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage and raised it to £5.52.

4. Over 14,000 more police in England and Wales.

5. Cut overall crime by 32 per cent.

6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools.

7. Young people achieving some of the best ever results at 14, 16, and 18.

8. Funding for every pupil in England has doubled.

9. Employment is at its highest level ever.

10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest countries.

11. 85,000 more nurses.

12. 32,000 more doctors.

13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards.

14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament.

15. Devolved power to the Welsh Assembly.

16. Dads now get paternity leave of 2 weeks for the first time.

17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice.

18. Gift aid was worth £828 million to charities last year.

19. Restored city-wide government to London.

20. Record number of students in higher education.

21. Child benefit up 26 per cent since 1997.

22. Delivered 2,200 Sure Start Children’s Centres.

23. Introduced the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

24. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & up to £300 for over-80s.

25. On course to exceed our Kyoto target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

26. Restored devolved government to Northern Ireland.

27. Over 36,000 more teachers in England and 274,000 more support staff and teaching assistants.

28. All full time workers now have a right to 24 days paid holiday.

29. A million pensioners lifted out of poverty.

30. 600,000 children lifted out of relative poverty.

31. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents.

32. Scrapped Section 28 and introduced Civil Partnerships.

33. Brought over 1 million social homes up to standard.

34. Inpatient waiting lists down by over half a million since 1997.

35. Banned fox hunting.

36. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since before the industrial revolution.

37. Free TV licences for over-75s.

38. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals.

39. Free breast cancer screening for all women aged between 50-70.

40. Free off peak local bus travel for over-60s.

41. New Deal – helped over 1.8 million people into work.

42. Over 3 million child trust funds have been started.

43. Free eye test for over 60s.

44. More than doubled the number of apprenticeships.

45. Free entry to national museums and galleries.

46. Overseas aid budget more than doubled.

47. Heart disease deaths down by 150,000 and cancer deaths down by 50,000.

48. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent.

49. Free nursery places for every three and four-year-olds.

50. Free fruit for most four to six-year-olds at school.

NHS - that period widely accepted as the one that stuffed the NHS in the longer-term - PFI, crazy new GP contracts, interfering and appointing lots of managers. Most of the NHS' current problems date to then. The undoubted short-term improvements have left a longer-term legacy which is wretched.

Devolution for Scotland - is making Labour unelectable nationally. I doubt we with EVER see another majority Labour government in the UK. It has also given a huge boost to the Independence movement.

Climate Change Act - posturing. Nobody in power or business has any will to deal with the matter. If they did the economy would need to contract massively. Businesses just use 'green' as a marketing tool while continuing by there very existence to add to environmental degradation.

JD mentioned NHS Direct. Assuming that is the 111 thing it is the most dangerous, useless 'service' imaginable. NEVER use it if somebody you know could potentially in a bad way.

The fact that you havent derided the other stuff, I assume, means that you may actually approve of it.
The PFI hospital builds, whilst now known to be the wrong way to solve the problem, did massively improve the fabric of the NHS and as the previous poster suggested, how it is being paid for isn't even a consideration when you go through the doors for treatment.
Compare the list mentioned to the swingeing austerity cuts under the Tories, who then expect us all to be grateful when they START to reverse some of their cuts, while at the same time not admitting that may of these cuts are the very reason for rising knife crime, increased drug use, homelessness etc, etc, etc
The Tories used to love to bang on about being "the party for law and order". Most crimes are not even recorded these days and when you get burgled, there isn't even a plan for catching the perpetrators.
At least it paves the way for tax cuts for the wealthiest in society though, so, it's all good stuff



One thing for sure.
If you have one, then, pray to your god that any youngsters that you know, dont suffer with any mental health issues.
The story in the news this week of the poor university student who took her own life is just the tip of the iceberg.
3 months waiting list for "urgent" cases and feck the rest and if you think that this is acceptable, the Tories are the party for you.

Well I for one think the NHS does a great job given the abuse it suffer from its customers. Patients not attending precious appointments, people attending A&E unnecessarily, treatments that shouldn't be undertaken in a public funded organisation. Patients abusing the NHS for their own ends and not looking after themselves e.g. diabetes. Perhaps if we all treated the service with the respect it deserves then there would be more funds available to treat mental illness etc.

You could put the whole GDP of the UK into the NHS and it still wouldn't be enough - so how do you choose your priorities - heart surgery v psychology - oncology v psychiatry etc. Do you turn people away at A&E and let them die so you spend the money on a mental condition - there is only so much money.

Perhaps inefficient due to its size and complexity but overall a huge force for good that I'm proud of. That statement holds true for both the NHS and the EU.

Fixed that for you.

no, you didn't. All Labour ever do is spend.

50% of the investment in the NHS simply went on increasing the salaries of the people already in post. The lack of real investment by Labour has been a lack of trained doctors and nurses

Minimum wage - a brilliant idea and should be applauded

Devolution - should have included it both ways i.e. why do we have the SNP in Westminster - they have absolutely nothing to do but cause trouble. They don't represent anyone as these people are represented in their own parliament

Good Friday agreement - see minimum wage

Civil partnerships etc - good stuff

Cancelled debt - why lend it in the first place? If you give a drug addict credit - you are not going to get paid, if you lend money to despot to buy mansions in Geneva you aren't getting that back. Perhaps we should be investing closer to home

Climate change - pointless unless you can the real polluters to change behaviour - its like corporation tax whilst ever you have a silo view on global matters your input will be pretty worthless.

Sadly all you lefties who think you know what's best for the rest of us still have a say - stupid people still have a vote

I can't disagree it was nothing short of financial accounting corruption. But the current position is just as much down to Tory austerity & financial policy.

I don't have any problem with that. I believe self-determination is an inalienable right; I'd be surprised if Leavers objected to that.

That is complete rubbish. Your last sentence is partially correct, however, any sensible company would use the marketing opportunity. I have worked in SD for over 20 years, with national & international businesses. There has always been an appetite but a worry & ignorance over how to get there. Leeds Climate Commission produced a roadmap of how to achieve zero carbon. The leader of that is an economist; the conclusion is that it can stack up financially, while creating new growth sector jobs. Wind turbine manufacture is growing in some of the most deprived areas of the UK. There has been a huge shift in priority & urgency over the last 12 months, on the back of the IPCC report & Attenborough's Blue Planet.

Sal, you seem to have deliberately missed the last part of my post.
Like you, my own personal experience of the NHS has been excellent. I think that it's the UK's best "asset" and something that maost of the world truly envies about our country.

However, on Mental Health, it's bloody woeful and desperately short on resource, which believe me, is causing/allowing young people to take their lives due to an abject lack of support for those in crisis.

As I said 3 MONTHS WAITING TIME FOR A REFERAL FOR URGENT CASES, usually people who have talked about or actually attempted suicide and if they go from child to adult (ie turn 1icon_cool.gif during treatment, they go to the back of the queue.

This is not being political it's just a statement of fact.

"well it was alright when I grazed my knee" doesnt change the above

Wrong.

The NHS is far from perfect but on the whole it offers a good service. Mental health is a difficult one because for one our understanding of the brain is so limited compared to the rest of the body. If you have angina because of a blocked artery easy, if you have depression multiple reasons more difficult - stress how much harder is that to diagnose and treat than a broken leg. Physical injuries are quick and easy to treat. Mental health can take years to treat. How much of mental illness will resolve itself with a change of inputs. You are depressed but you meet a new partner, you get a new job etc. If you have a blocked artery it needs treating or it will get worse.

I go back to my earlier point the NHS has a finite amount of money - new treatments come along, we are all living longer, we are more aware of conditions etc. So how do you spend the money in the most constructive manner. All teenagers go through times of self doubt etc. its really tough their peer group lack the sensitivity to behave in an adult fashion its brutal. Most find a way and I would suggest a lot more would find a way if encouraged and supported without the need for the NHS.

How do you fund it and to what level and what services do you expect it to offer. If we put another £20bn in where does it get spent, my view is training and equipment not huge increases in pay for existing personnel.

Over Labour’s 13 years in power from 1997 to 2010, healthcare budgets grew by 5.6 per cent a year on average. They grew by 1.3 per cent a year under the Conservatives between 2010 and 2016. I am not in a position to dispute your statement; not that I have a problem with adequately rewarding those who do such a vital job. I am sure attracting & retaining the best staff should be a priority.

Because England, Westminster still has reserved powers over Scotland's Benefits and social security, Taxes, Pensions, Immigration, Defence, Foreign policy, Employment, Nuclear energy, oil, coal, gas and electricity.

Again, you miss the point.
A young person attempting suicide has to wait 3 MONTHS FRO A REFERAL due to lack of resource.
I suppose if they are successful in their attempt, it save the taxpayer some money FFS

The funding for this, as an absolute minimum, needs to allow as close to an instant referral, to try and prevent the loss of life.
Yes, the issues can be extremely complex but, the cuts under the Tory regime, especially in mental health have decimated this part of the NHS.
Yes, when certain Royals jumped on the mental health bandwagon, their was lip service towards dealing with the issue but, the current change doesn't even begin to replace what has been cut.
On a related subject, one of the reasons for some hospital wards being full is the lack of care available outside of the hospitals.
Again, social care under this government has been butchered but, hey, let's have some more tax cuts, especially for those paying the top level of tax.
It's fundamentally disgusting that ANYONE, let alone those "running" the country should think this way.

Until a government, of whichever leaning, makes multi-national corporates pay the tax they should owe then things will not change. You can't blame the likes of Google, FlynScare, Appleetc for playing the rules as they stand, but you can blame successive governments fornot changing the rules. I would pay moretax if I didn't see so much being wasted. The EU is a prime example of a waste of money.

You miss the point FFS - there is a finite amount of money so where do you spend it - do you treat a car crash victim who will definitely die if you don't treat or on a youngster who may or may not commit suicide - these are hideous choices. There are only so many trained professionals so how do you allocate their time. It takes years to train these people so just throwing money at increased salaries isn't the answer IMO - training more is.

I am not arguing that it is not needed but the NHS has to make judgement calls on how it spends its money.

How would you spend it