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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"We have discussed this endlessly you think there will be queues everywhere because "you are in the business" I disagree because evidence suggests plenty of product from outside of the EU flows seamlessly into the EU so why should that change because the product is either flowing in or out of the UK. Even the bossman at Dover has seen significant changes and doesn't see the same level of disruption as was forecast.
Ireland is an island and as such there are limited amounts of goods that can leave the country - it all has to go by sea.
You know best - you tell us why it is going to be so bad.'"
If you can't comprehend the difference between freight, usually not time critical, arriving in containers in ports with generally several weeks on water before it gets here, and wheeled freight which arrives on trailers and is often time critical, not least in driver hours, then I worry about you. The first is how most of our freight from China etc gets here, the latter how most of our freight from the EU gets here.
The container ports at Felixstowe and Southampton are built with plenty of space for customs clearance where things can sit even if the six weeks at sea hasn't been enough to get the paperwork sorted. The port of Dover and the tunnel exit at Folkestone aren't, because they are developed for immediate clearance with minimal fuss and the stuff they are delivering often can't sit around anyway. Where are they going to go, who is going to do the customs clearing, what paperwork is ready to go on day 1?
And even if your government's opening gambit under WTO rules is to just not bother with inspection and duty (wait til you meet the people who enforce World Trade Organisation rules, you'll love them) we know that the French and the Dutch will enforce the EU rules which protect the single market. Thus delays at Calais are the greater issue than those at Dover.
Your answer, as ever, appears to be "ignore the detail, it'll work itself out". But then this is what happens when ignoring experts was a key plank of your agenda.
Ignoring detail, blaming others, not answering questions and outright lying won the Leave side the referendum. It simply isn't good enough now you have to implement the unformed policy you fought for. But I've long given up expecting Leavers to take any responsibility for this whole sorry mess.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise" I disagree because evidence suggests plenty of product from outside of the EU flows seamlessly into the EU so why should that change because the product is either flowing in or out of the UK.'"
If that's the case, why bother leaving the biggest trading block in the world?
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| Quote ="tigertot"If that's the case, why bother leaving the biggest trading block in the world?'"
Because reasons - but definitely *not* racist xenophobia, deliberately stoked by people who have billions resting on short positions against the £. Definitely not that.
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| I have found it interesting how little Government & media support there has been for the Hong Kong protestors. Surely not related to our desperation to do a trade deal? Sod labour standards, environmental protection and anti-corruption measures.
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| Quote ="tigertot"If that's the case, why bother leaving the biggest trading block in the world?'"
Because whilst that is a benefit there are numerous downsides as you well know - this was never about the movement of goods this was always about control and being subservient to the EU. Is free trade worth having your laws implemented elsewhere, is a free trade deal worth your having to refer to ECJ, is a free trade deal worth the EU telling you where you can fish and who can fish in your waters. Is a free trade worth the billions you have to put in to support other countries and the amount of waste that inevitably comes when huge public bodies emerge? etc. etc.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Because whilst that is a benefit there are numerous downsides as you well know - this was never about the movement of goods this was always about control and being subservient to the EU. Is free trade worth having your laws implemented elsewhere, is a free trade deal worth your having to refer to ECJ, is a free trade deal worth the EU telling you where you can fish and who can fish in your waters. Is a free trade worth the billions you have to put in to support other countries and the amount of waste that inevitably comes when huge public bodies emerge? etc. etc.'"
Given the contents of the Yellowhammer document - it's a yes from me, to all your loaded questions.
On that matter - I've yet to speak to a Leaver who could reasonably articulate which EU laws have negatively impacted them; can you?
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Because whilst that is a benefit there are numerous downsides as you well know - this was never about the movement of goods this was always about control and being subservient to the EU. Is free trade worth having your laws implemented elsewhere, is a free trade deal worth your having to refer to ECJ, is a free trade deal worth the EU telling you where you can fish and who can fish in your waters. Is a free trade worth the billions you have to put in to support other countries and the amount of waste that inevitably comes when huge public bodies emerge? etc. etc.'"
Obviously yes. Control & subservience are just emotive words spewed out by those who really want to control us. Just how much local control has Cameron's localism reforms given us? The major problems in this country are as a result of domestic policies pursued by a Tory party, using the excuse of a capitalist inspired world recession, to impose austerity & who couldn't give a stuff about the impacts on the worse off in society. I would say it is far more efficient that one body agrees & manages trade deals with the rest of the world than a bunch of desperate numpties pleading with a 100 individual countries.
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| So, should they gain power in the forthcoming election (when it finally happens), the Libdems have voted to scrap article 50 and remain in the EU, reneging on the referendum result.
Controversial or political masterstroke (remembering that they would have course have to gain a Parliamentary majority first, which is very highly unlikely)
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| I'm a lifelong Lib Dem voter (with the exception of about 6 years from 2010 when I was full of rage and politically homeless). However often Jo Swinson wants to say she aspires to be the next Prime Minister, we all know it is a load of old cobblers. When you know you cannot possibly gain power then you could write a manifesto offering a unicorn for every family that cries diamonds. So to me that whole revoke article 50 is a red herring. The commitment to push for a second referendum is their only Brexit policy decision that's relevant imo.
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| Quote ="Pumpetypump"I'm a lifelong Lib Dem voter (with the exception of about 6 years from 2010 when I was full of rage and politically homeless). However often Jo Swinson wants to say she aspires to be the next Prime Minister, we all know it is a load of old cobblers. When you know you cannot possibly gain power then you could write a manifesto offering a unicorn for every family that cries diamonds. So to me that whole revoke article 50 is a red herring. The commitment to push for a second referendum is their only Brexit policy decision that's relevant imo.'"
It will be an interesting election for sure.
As you rightly say, the chance of the Libdems gaining power is 0, although with such a black and white statement, their realistic hope will be to pick up "remain" voters from both Labour and The Tories.
Of course, unless they do a deal with Farage, the Tory vote could well be split down the middle and who knows what will happen to Labour, who despite having "a clear policy", need to firmly pick a side.
Their poll ratings, for an opposition party against a minority ruling party, are abysmal, currently sitting 4th behind the Tories, Brexit and Libdems.
I think that when the campaign kicks off for real, we will all need translator's and lie detectors to cut through the current trend of spewing made up rhetoric and numbers.
Your suggestion of a Unicorn for each voter is likely to be closer to the truth than many of the promises that are to come and in Boris' case already made. He's already put Labours "magic money tree" firmly in the shade.
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| Realistically, the best the LDs can aspire to be in the short to medium term is kingmakers along with the SNP. And if we believe their insistence that they would never get into bed with the Tories again, which would be an unforgivable act to me and many others after 2010, then that's a Labour Government given a functioning majority by a pact of LDs and SNPs. The condition of that support (I'd hope confidence and supply not coalition) would be a second referendum.
My worry is that the Labour polling suggests a possibly precarious majority even with all the pro European minority parties lending their support.
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| Quote ="Pumpetypump"Realistically, the best the LDs can aspire to be in the short to medium term is kingmakers along with the SNP. And if we believe their insistence that they would never get into bed with the Tories again, which would be an unforgivable act to me and many others after 2010, then that's a Labour Government given a functioning majority by a pact of LDs and SNPs. The condition of that support (I'd hope confidence and supply not coalition) would be a second referendum.
My worry is that the Labour polling suggests a possibly precarious majority even with all the pro European minority parties lending their support.'"
If Labour and the Libdems were clever, they would drop a few candidates and ensure that the Tories/Brexit parties win fewer seats but, I think that Corbyn in particular and Swinson are both pretty stubborn and neither wants to be seen conceding ground to their "rival".
Hopefully, Farage and Boris are just as obstinate and the knock lumps out of each others vote share
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| Boris "chicken" Johnson failed to show for his own press conference in Luxembourg, hilarious.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Boris "chicken" Johnson failed to show for his own press conference in Luxembourg, hilarious.'"
Johnson the chicken liar that he is, was shown by Xavier Bettel just how a statesman should conduct himself.
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| Wasn't a pre arranged press conference, but don't let facts worry you. I am sure the mighty Luxemboug would welcome you with open arms.
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| Quote ="bren2k"
On that matter - I've yet to speak to a Leaver who could reasonably articulate which EU laws have negatively impacted them; can you?'"
Best of luck getting an answer to that one. Maybe he'll mention bananas if he's not found out it's not true yet.
The thing is these Brexiteers always bang on about stuff being "imposed by Brussels" as if the EU is one big blob who all think the same way and there is total lack of any British input into the key decisions. All untrue, of course, but nothing will be allowed to get in the way of this agenda, they're all in way too deep.
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| Quote ="IR80"Wasn't a pre arranged press conference, but don't let facts worry you. I am sure the mighty Luxemboug would welcome you with open arms.'"
Of course it was pre-arranged. Do you think the stage, cameras, props and audience appeared from thin air?
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| Quote ="IR80"Wasn't a pre arranged press conference, but don't let facts worry you.'"
"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."
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| Quote ="IR80"Wasn't a pre arranged press conference, but don't let facts worry you. I am sure the mighty Luxemboug would welcome you with open arms.'"
Are you saying that those nasty EU politicians staged the event to make "chicken Johnson" look bad ?
I think he managed that all by himself.
Yet again he reverts to type, a few fancy one liners but no actual depth or substance.
He says "we are making great progress" but, EVERYONE else seems to be saying that "nothing has changed"
The right wing of the Tory Party want's "no deal" anyway so, he's probably not bothered.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"icon_lol.gif
Are you saying that those nasty EU politicians staged the event to make "chicken Johnson" look bad ?
I think he managed that all by himself.
Yet again he reverts to type, a few fancy one liners but no actual depth or substance.
He says "we are making great progress" but, EVERYONE else seems to be saying that "nothing has changed"'"
They moved it next to a protest. The LuxembougLoon had an agenda.
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| Quote ="IR80"They moved it next to a protest. The LuxembougLoon had an agenda.'"
So it was arranged then? Luxembourg is a great country my racist friend, with one of the highest standards of living in the world. It also lacks the privileged class with its ignorant serfs doing its fobbing.
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| Quote ="tigertot"So it was arranged then? Luxembourg is a great country my racist friend, with one of the highest standards of living in the world. It also lacks the privileged class with its ignorant serfs doing its fobbing.'"
Where does this assertion I am racist come from?
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| It was quite obvious a set up, if you go on various news outlets you can hear the noise ,it was deafening. It would have been impossible to conduct a press conference under those circumstances. Even the bbc agreed with that. Johnson asked to move the meeting indoors, was refused so had no other option but to walk away from the mob. Still it gave the Luxembourg politician his spot in the limelight. Never heard of him before ,probably never hear from him again. Whatever anyone thinks of Johnson as prime minister of this country ,he deserved treating with respect. No visiting politician coming to this country would be treated in such a shabby fashion. Still it’s no surprise at the resentment from Luxembourg they are the richest country in Europe, thanks to EU money. Large sections of the press are crowing over Johnson’s humiliation, I think the vast majority of the British public might have a different view.
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| Quote ="tigertot"So it was arranged then? Luxembourg is a great country my racist friend, with one of the highest standards of living in the world. It also lacks the privileged class with its ignorant serfs doing its fobbing.'"
Good old Luxembourg, the tax avoidance capital of Europe.
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| Quote ="Backwoodsman"Good old Luxembourg, the tax avoidance capital of Europe.'"
Not like the UK at all then ??
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