~gets popcorn and sits down to wait patiently~

Lets bite the bullet on this one and say the unpalatable thing that everyone is well aware of but is afraid to say - the vast majority of those who previously were claiming any form of social support and especially those in receipt of any sort of disability benefit are the very last ones to be employed even in a healthy economic climate.

A deaf and blind man who is fed through a tube and needs 24 hour care is a stupid anomoly (the assessors being the stupid element) and I'm sure that when they put someone on the review case who has a brain that functions then the decision will be reversed for if it isn't then we will all know the absolute truth.

But the more common truth is that a fit and healthy person with a constant employment record (until the recession kicked in), with glowing references and a 100% attendance and 0% sickness record will still find it impossible to find work at the moment as 2 million plus will testify, the actually sick and disabled but now struck off the benefits register stand in line a long way behind those people when seeking employment in a private business world and with the public sector not recruiting then that is what they are left with.

No employer will employ a person who may have mobility problems, who may have to take periods of sick leave, who may have to attend frequent doctors visits, who may have permanent but not absolutely debilitating conditions, ahead of a person presented who has an unblemished health record - its just not going to happen in a private business no matter how much bull the politicians throw our way and no matter how much discrimination legislation you try and enforce - its unenforceable unless you have a government lawyer sitting on every interview.

I just don't understand this attitude that says to the friend of mine who worked for forty years in social services doing home help social care until her knees cave din and she had to have one knee completely replced with a plastic one, which then failed and has left her unable to walk more than 500 yards let alone kneel and/or lift patients in and out of bed - to then say to this person who only last year was given a disability allownace, "No, although your assesment hasn't changed you are no longer considered unfit for work and must seek out employment", its true, she could sit at a desk all day but she's never done that work before, so where is the work going to come from ?

Why the hell they don't just say "We no longer support or care for the long term or permenantly disabled, now go and seek charity" like they used to do in the 1800's ?

I was only reading last week on a group I belong that share our experiences with Atos and DWP that someone had been to a Work Related Activity Group meeting at the JobCentre and they actually said to not mention your disability at interview stage, to only mention it once you have the job!! This is the JobCentre staff giving this advice to lie at interview and I have no reason to doubt the person who posted this. As for answering Sal; not one of us is actually opposed to being re-tested, all we ask is that it is done fairly and sensibly and not re-test the chap in Coddys quoted article or amputees or blind people every year. Every 5 - 10 years would be fair so they have an up to date record of that persons condition. We also want the questions to be fair which Labour brought in but this government changed all the questions on the ESA50 form March last year. When you're asked can you pick up a pen and are given a tick box of yes or no without no room for further expanding and on the new PIP forms you cannot mention the pain or how many times you have to stop when walking x distance, then you know you're on a hiding to nothing. The actual fraud in benefits is: Income Support: 2.4% JobSeeker's Allowance: 4.1% Pension Credit: 2.3% Housing Benefit: 1.3% Incapacity Benefit: 0.3% Disability Living Allowance: 0.5% Retirement Pension: 0.0% Carer's Allowance: 3.9% Found here: wheresthebenefit.blogspot.co.uk/ ... ppers.html These are the governments (DWP) own figures that the likes of IDS like to ignore and quote very inflated and semi truth figures. He churns out the same old mantra, 75 % of ESA claimants have been found fit for work. Yes, the have, but what he fails to tell you, and he knows the truth damn well but choses not to disclose it, is that 40% have their ESA benefit reinstated at appeal because Atos have either misrepresented the information or told outright lies on the computer system called LIMA which is a tick box system and the health care professional* and I use that term loosly, has to find the right statement which best fits the answer the claimant has given. They are not allowed to treat every person's condition individually. * They don't have to be Doctors. I could have a midwife, nurse or physiotherapist assess my rheumatoid arthritis and say I am fit for work even though I have letters from my rheumatologist who is one of the top Professors in rheumatology in the country saying I am not fit for work at the moment.

I was only reading last week on a group I belong that share our experiences with Atos and DWP that someone had been to a Work Related Activity Group meeting at the JobCentre and they actually said to not mention your disability at interview stage, to only mention it once you have the job!! This is the JobCentre staff giving this advice to lie at interview and I have no reason to doubt the person who posted this. As for answering Sal; not one of us is actually opposed to being re-tested, all we ask is that it is done fairly and sensibly and not re-test the chap in Coddys quoted article or amputees or blind people every year. Every 5 - 10 years would be fair so they have an up to date record of that persons condition. We also want the questions to be fair which Labour brought in but this government changed all the questions on the ESA50 form March last year. When you're asked can you pick up a pen and are given a tick box of yes or no without no room for further expanding and on the new PIP forms you cannot mention the pain or how many times you have to stop when walking x distance, then you know you're on a hiding to nothing. The actual fraud in benefits is: Income Support: 2.4% JobSeeker's Allowance: 4.1% Pension Credit: 2.3% Housing Benefit: 1.3% Incapacity Benefit: 0.3% Disability Living Allowance: 0.5% Retirement Pension: 0.0% Carer's Allowance: 3.9% Found here: wheresthebenefit.blogspot.co.uk/ ... ppers.html These are the governments (DWP) own figures that the likes of IDS like to ignore and quote very inflated and semi truth figures. He churns out the same old mantra, 75 % of ESA claimants have been found fit for work. Yes, the have, but what he fails to tell you, and he knows the truth damn well but choses not to disclose it, is that 40% have their ESA benefit reinstated at appeal because Atos have either misrepresented the information or told outright lies on the computer system called LIMA which is a tick box system and the health care professional* and I use that term loosly, has to find the right statement which best fits the answer the claimant has given. They are not allowed to treat every person's condition individually. * They don't have to be Doctors. I could have a midwife, nurse or physiotherapist assess my rheumatoid arthritis and say I am fit for work even though I have letters from my rheumatologist who is one of the top Professors in rheumatology in the country saying I am not fit for work at the moment.

And that is the actual disgrace, a government funded, very expensive procedure, with a 40% failure rate. If this were a "normal" private business in the retail environment, lets say they made washing machines, with a 40% failure rate how many among us think they would survive their first year of operation ?

Unfortunately despite promising greater efficiences by using private companies rather than civil servants, governments of all shades do not do performance assesments very well, they do not replace a company for not doing the job properly unless a whistle blower can shout "fraud!" and make it stick solid as in the recent A4e scandal which they quickly localised and pinned on rogue employees so as to minimise the number of eventually cancelled contracts - governments of all shades do not like doing this as it reflects badly on their own judgement and political direction and ultimately could bring down a Prime Minister.



And your earlier para about job centre advice for the disabled does not surprise me, frankly if I had a disability that could be hidden at interview even for a short while, then I would for its the only way that the long term sick and permenantly disabled but now fit for work are going to be considered equally with the rest of the applicants despite lots of bollax equal opportunity legislation that cannot ever work in a private business when job selection is so often made on whims and personal choice followed up by the correct box ticking to prove equality.

It should be mentioned that Atos don't have the money taken off them either for every decision thats overturned at appeal so its in their best interests to find as many people fit for work and not have to worry about "refunds". If the system was different, that they had to pay back a percentage for every sucessful appeal I think the figures that IDS so loves to quote would be a lot lower. Jobs for the boys yet again.

Eithewr this disfunctional bunch of misfits have completely lost the plot or Cameron and his chums have been under deep-cover for many years, as agents for another state, determined to competely wrech the fabric of British society.

Not content with hammering the sick, elderly, poor (working or not) and those who employ them, the latest target is now the Civil Service. Not just the minions but also the upper echelons: [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/may/20/civil-service-pay-cut-whitehall?INTCMP=SRCHSecret Civil Service "pay map"[/url

The whole sorry saga of this government is starting to read like a cross between a Shakespearean tragedy and a Whitehall farce.

Another excellent post from Mr Field.

Has Sal been on yet to explain what happened when he shopped his cheating, druggie relatives?

Too busy in the real world I understand

Now we know.

Anyone who is opposed to tax cuts is just exhibiting [url=http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/05/taxpayers-alliance-report-sexual-jealousy/'sexual jealousy'.[/url

Provided it is done well, it is a sensible idea. Public sector pay should reflect local employment market conditions otherwise there is a major distortion in the labour market. Under the current system public sector workers get paid relatively well in, say, the NE then there are two ramifications of that - private sector growth in the NE is liklely to be stifled (as the best people will work in the public sector there) and people in, say, London doing the equivalent public sector job as their NE colleague will be under-paid relative to the local jobs market. That will result in less good staff being retained.

In, say, NHS terms, that might serve to smooth out the postcode lottery.

And that's why companies such as, M&S, use regional pay.

Oh, hang on – they don't.

True. Proof - Bernie Ecclestone and his ex- wife.

That's their decision. But, if M&S is representative then public sector pay would remain level. So, it's a non-point.

Big, successful companies knowing full well that regional pay is not the way forward and not of benefit is an entirely valid point.

Just as it to point out that plenty of private companies work with unions because it's effective – and allow facility time because it's effective and worthwhile.

That doesn't fit with the propaganda of the sexually non-jealous and their idiot mates, but that doesn't mean it's not a fact.

And it's 'their' – not "there".

It is not just M&S though, it's the way the vast majority of large companies with a nationwide presence work, apart from some form of London-weighting. If the NHS were to follow suit, what do you think would happen to hospital staffing in regional border areas?

As I have pointed out to you before, Mr HWS is trying to get out of public sector and is going after jobs in the private sector and what he is finding is higher pay in the private sector than the public sector for the same job just in a different environment. I have spoken before about why he has stayed with the public sector, he always thought he would be safe working in schools but they are mostly turning into acadamies or free schools which are all run privately without using council services.

No one is disputing regional pay in London, everyone knows about the weighting system, but for a profession like teachers, they should get [ubetter [/upay for having to teach in the inner city schools as they have a lot more to cope with then say a teacher in Henley on Thames. What you are also going to see is the better areas get better (more public sector workers) and the not so better areas are going to get even worse (no one will want to work for less pay). Sound familiar in a different context?

Your whole argument hinges and completely fails on that one statement.

Do you seriously expect anything that this bunch of chancers attempt, to be "done well"?

No.

Chancers is right. The latest loony right proposal is to bring back sacking on the spot. Which is how it was when I first started work. I used to work for the Cat dealer in the sixties. They had several D8 engines fail in a few weeks, and every time one failed the fitter who built it was sacked. It later turned out that the problem was with the engine bearings. 3 -4 fitters down the road, of course they never came back. Not too bad in the sixties, could lead to disaster today for the person in question.
I have further personal experience of the benefits of employment protection. My son worked for a nationally known electronics retailer. He was scapegoated and sacked for someone else's mistake. Fortunately thanks to the current employment law he was able to seek redress and got some worthwhile compensation. This lot are trying to introduce a sacker's charter. Apart from the human consequences, what about its effect on the economy generally with people being reluctant to spend on large ticket items in case they get the sack tomorrow.
IMO this lot aim to put employment relations back into the 19th century. Some of the suggestions in the current report that have been dropped included the alteration of child labour laws. But then they guy who wrote it is a large contributor to Tory funds so he must be right - mustn't he?

Although I long discounted the concept of a New World Order, I'm now far from convinced that what we are currently experiencing isn't a strategy for something similar.

Democracy is dying on its feet, there are Eurpoean nation states who have had leaders imposed on them from Brussels, the people had no vote and no choice in the matter. The IMF, WTO, World Bank and other institutions dictate how countries should operate and trade with each other. Money, old and new looks to make ever more money without a thought to the social, human and environmental consequences. The vast majority of the world's population are now under some form of slavery, whether that be physical slaves, wage slaves or simply mortgage slaves.

This government is no different to many others, they do not serve the people, they serve money and will push through whatever is required to ensure that those with money get the greater "wealth" that they desire.

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/21/beecroft-discrimination-no-fault-dismissal?INTCMP=SRCHStefan Stern's view of the Beecroft Report[/url

Metaphorically ripping it into 4, threading a bit of string through the pieces and hanging it on a nail in the outside lavvy

I love the way Mr Beecroft's response to Vince Cable's dismissal of his report is:




[urlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18170333[/url

Beecroft is Gordon Gecko, isn't he?

I'm still trying to work out what jobs would have been created if Beecroft's original desire of getting rid of regulations on child employment had been carried through.

If this is all about boosting the economy, then how many employers would like to employ children but cannot currently do so because of regulations – and what jobs would they be creating?

It's speaks volumes of just how "in-touch" Beecroft is if he thinks Cable is a socialist