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| Quote ="SBR"They all appear to be referring to the short term and as we are in the middle of a recession it's hardly surprising. The claim was that [iover the last 30 years[/i income has fallen against the cost of living.'"
It could be argued (indeed, has been argued) that low wages can cause recession.
It's a valid point, if people don't have money then either a) they don't buy or b) they borrow to buy. |
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OOOOOOOOhhhh sorry for having an opinion.... sorry if it goes against some of your thoughts, but why should someone on benefits be allowed to claim and earnmore than someone doing a full weeks/months work for doing nothing for either the community or the economy. not made up but fact i know of one individual who in benefits and other allowences "earns" £1856 per month, and does nothing for it! how do i know because this scrounging individual is a cousin, one i add i have no respect for. our welfare system breeds idleness and corruption, i have no doubt many people deserve the system, but they should also have an incentive to get out of it too.
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| Quote ="liedetector"OOOOOOOOhhhh sorry for having an opinion.... sorry if it goes against some of your thoughts, but why should someone on benefits be allowed to claim and earnmore than someone doing a full weeks/months work for doing nothing for either the community or the economy. not made up but fact i know of one individual who in benefits and other allowences "earns" £1856 per month, and does nothing for it! how do i know because this scrounging individual is a cousin, one i add i have no respect for. our welfare system breeds idleness and corruption, i have no doubt many people deserve the system, but they should also have an incentive to get out of it too.'"
I watched the TV programme on BBC 2 about the Welfare State a few weeks back. One married couple, both unemployed, with three kids got in total £21000 per year in benefits (that included their housing benefit).
I sat down and worked out our family earnings. I work 37 and 1/2 hours per week, my wife who does non paid voluntary work and we have four kids. Including the family tax credits I get I was less then £1000 per year better off then the family in the programme and I have more kids to provide for.
I'd argue that it's not benefits that are necessarily too high, it's ty wages that are far too low. However it does annoy me that if I gave up my crappy paid job and decided that it isn't worth working like the people in the programme I wouldn't get any dole money! |
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| Quote ="liedetector"OOOOOOOOhhhh sorry for having an opinion.... sorry if it goes against some of your thoughts, but why should someone on benefits be allowed to claim and earnmore than someone doing a full weeks/months work for doing nothing for either the community or the economy. not made up but fact i know of one individual who in benefits and other allowences "earns" £1856 per month, and does nothing for it! how do i know because this scrounging individual is a cousin, one i add i have no respect for. our welfare system breeds idleness and corruption, i have no doubt many people deserve the system, but they should also have an incentive to get out of it too.'"
For me that'll be when they find a cure for rheumatoid arthritis. That'll be my incentive to "get out of it". |
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| Quote ="liedetector"OOOOOOOOhhhh sorry for having an opinion...'"
OOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (see, we can all go OTT), sorry for having an opinion about your opinion.
That's the way debates and discussion and free speech work. |
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| Quote ="LeighGionaire"I watched the TV programme on BBC 2 about the Welfare State a few weeks back. One married couple, both unemployed, with three kids got in total £21000 per year in benefits (that included their housing benefit).
I sat down and worked out our family earnings. I work 37 and 1/2 hours per week, my wife who does non paid voluntary work and we have four kids. Including the family tax credits I get I was less then £1000 per year better off then the family in the programme and I have more kids to provide for.
I'd argue that it's not benefits that are necessarily too high, it's rubbish wages that are far too low. However it does annoy me that if I gave up my crappy paid job and decided that it isn't worth working like the people in the programme I wouldn't get any dole money!'"
As the average family gets ca. GBP 22,000 spent on them per annum by the State (per Robertson's programme on BBC 2 tonight) then I don't think anyone should complain. |
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Quote ="Mintball"If that's down to the recession alone, then why isn't it impacting on those at the very top too?
I have access to Google – here's another search: 'falling Uk wages 30 years'. There's plenty.
www.google.co.uk/search?client=s ... -gaU_Ny7Dg'"
Taking the first hit, from the TUC:
Quote Those higher up the income scale have enjoyed a more rapid rise n living standards than those in the bottom 60 per cent of the income distribution, while the super-rich have secured themselves a personal wealth boom on a scale not seen since the end of the nineteenth century.'"
Some people have benefited more than others.
[url=http://www.channel4.com/news/wages-at-standstill-over-last-30-yearsThe third result[/url shows that incomes have risen but sadly does not correlate that with the rise in the cost of living.
Again, yes, income inequality has increased (I've never disputed that), but where is the evidence to backup up the claim that "everyone apart from those at the very top, have seen their incomes fall against the rising cost of living over the last 30 years"? |
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Quote ="Mintball"If that's down to the recession alone, then why isn't it impacting on those at the very top too?
I have access to Google – here's another search: 'falling Uk wages 30 years'. There's plenty.
www.google.co.uk/search?client=s ... -gaU_Ny7Dg'"
Taking the first hit, from the TUC:
Quote Those higher up the income scale have enjoyed a more rapid rise n living standards than those in the bottom 60 per cent of the income distribution, while the super-rich have secured themselves a personal wealth boom on a scale not seen since the end of the nineteenth century.'"
Some people have benefited more than others.
[url=http://www.channel4.com/news/wages-at-standstill-over-last-30-yearsThe third result[/url shows that incomes have risen but sadly does not correlate that with the rise in the cost of living.
Again, yes, income inequality has increased (I've never disputed that), but where is the evidence to backup up the claim that "everyone apart from those at the very top, have seen their incomes fall against the rising cost of living over the last 30 years"? | |
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| Quote ="LeighGionaire"I'd argue that it's not benefits that are necessarily too high, it's rubbish wages that are far too low.'"
And you'd find many here who would agree with that.
Part of the issue is the cost of housing, reduce that and you'd reduce a great deal of the need for wage rises and reduce the welfare bill too. |
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www.hrmagazine.co.uk/hro/news/10 ... west-world
www.financialadvice.co.uk/news/h ... iving.html
We know that the cost of housing has risen to crackpot levels – £125,000K for a basic, one-bed flat if you're a 'key worker' now in Hackney, for instance. How many 'key workers' earn over £41K per annum? Let alone how many non-key workers can afford double that for a one-bed flat.
We know that people now have to pay tuition fees where once they didn't. We know that domestic utility bills are going through the roof. We know that many (in England at least) have to pay for prescriptions where once they didn't. We know that dental and eye care cost far more than they used to. We know that the cost of transport has risen massively.
These are not luxuries. These are basics. And incomes would have had to have risen a lot to have kept pace.
BTW SBR – perhaps you could find something to show just how pay has risen to mitigate all these rising costs?
[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1358161/The-rising-cost-living-revealed-How-young-need-twice-salary-match-parents-lifestyle.html'How young need twice salary of their parents to match the lifestyle'.[/url
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www.hrmagazine.co.uk/hro/news/10 ... west-world
www.financialadvice.co.uk/news/h ... iving.html
We know that the cost of housing has risen to crackpot levels – £125,000K for a basic, one-bed flat if you're a 'key worker' now in Hackney, for instance. How many 'key workers' earn over £41K per annum? Let alone how many non-key workers can afford double that for a one-bed flat.
We know that people now have to pay tuition fees where once they didn't. We know that domestic utility bills are going through the roof. We know that many (in England at least) have to pay for prescriptions where once they didn't. We know that dental and eye care cost far more than they used to. We know that the cost of transport has risen massively.
These are not luxuries. These are basics. And incomes would have had to have risen a lot to have kept pace.
BTW SBR – perhaps you could find something to show just how pay has risen to mitigate all these rising costs?
[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1358161/The-rising-cost-living-revealed-How-young-need-twice-salary-match-parents-lifestyle.html'How young need twice salary of their parents to match the lifestyle'.[/url
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Lots of people have been able to ride out and offset these effects because they pay low interest rates on their mortgages, but after a few years of this that lower mortgage has been factored in and got used to. No money has been set aside probably.
If the interest rates go up to double current rates and little else changes, then the faeces will hit the fan.
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Oh, this is good – another tax evader who begged the government to cut services is closing shops rather than creating the jobs that he (and others) promised to create in order to provide work for those made unemployed.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15867924 |
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Oh, this is good – another tax evader who begged the government to cut services is closing shops rather than creating the jobs that he (and others) promised to create in order to provide work for those made unemployed.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15867924 | |
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Quote ="Mintball"Oh, this is good – another tax evader who begged the government to cut services is closing shops rather than creating the jobs that he (and others) promised to create in order to provide work for those made unemployed.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15867924'"
I think Cam and Ozzie have forgotten their ridiculous diagnosis that the public sector was squeezing-out the private sector and I'd guess they are hoping that we've forgotten their prognosis that the private sector would provide jobs for those being sacked in the public sector.
It ain't happening is it? |
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Quote ="Mintball"Oh, this is good – another tax evader who begged the government to cut services is closing shops rather than creating the jobs that he (and others) promised to create in order to provide work for those made unemployed.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15867924'"
I think Cam and Ozzie have forgotten their ridiculous diagnosis that the public sector was squeezing-out the private sector and I'd guess they are hoping that we've forgotten their prognosis that the private sector would provide jobs for those being sacked in the public sector.
It ain't happening is it? | |
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Quote ="Mintball"Oh, this is good – another tax evader who begged the government to cut services is closing shops rather than creating the jobs that he (and others) promised to create in order to provide work for those made unemployed.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15867924'"
Highlighting the fact that actually, there is no such thing as an "expert" in economics, its all theory and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
"You must cut services, get rid of civil servants" came the call
"OK" came the answer
"Oh, hang on, they've stopped spending money"
"Now what do you want us to do ?"
"Don't know, I'm just trying to save my a[irs[/ie at the next shareholders meeting" |
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Quote ="Mintball"Oh, this is good – another tax evader who begged the government to cut services is closing shops rather than creating the jobs that he (and others) promised to create in order to provide work for those made unemployed.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15867924'"
Highlighting the fact that actually, there is no such thing as an "expert" in economics, its all theory and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
"You must cut services, get rid of civil servants" came the call
"OK" came the answer
"Oh, hang on, they've stopped spending money"
"Now what do you want us to do ?"
"Don't know, I'm just trying to save my a[irs[/ie at the next shareholders meeting" | |
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| Quote ="El Barbudo"I think Cam and Ozzie have forgotten their ridiculous diagnosis that the public sector was squeezing-out the private sector and I'd guess they are hoping that we've forgotten their prognosis that the private sector would provide jobs for those being sacked in the public sector.
It ain't happening is it?'"
Nope.
Quote ="McLaren_Field"Highlighting the fact that actually, there is no such thing as an "expert" in economics, its all theory and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
"You must cut services, get rid of civil servants" came the call
"OK" came the answer
"Oh, hang on, they've stopped spending money"
"Now what do you want us to do ?"
"Don't know, I'm just trying to save my a[irs[/ie at the next shareholders meeting"'"
I think that's a pretty good summing up. Still, they're only screwing around with other people's lives. |
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Quote ="Mintball"Oh, this is good – another tax evader who begged the government to cut services is closing shops rather than creating the jobs that he (and others) promised to create in order to provide work for those made unemployed.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15867924'"
I may be wrong here, but wasn't Green's "recommendation" to the government more to do with improving goverment procurement and making more efficient use of its supply chains, rather than cutting services or jobs? |
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Quote ="Mintball"Oh, this is good – another tax evader who begged the government to cut services is closing shops rather than creating the jobs that he (and others) promised to create in order to provide work for those made unemployed.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15867924'"
I may be wrong here, but wasn't Green's "recommendation" to the government more to do with improving goverment procurement and making more efficient use of its supply chains, rather than cutting services or jobs? | |
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I don't think anyone here is in any doubts about my thoughts on neo-liberalism, but in the short term, if you want to grow an economy that is massively based on consumerism, then to reduce the amount of people who can be active consumers is economic illiteracy.
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| Quote ="Mintball"I don't think anyone here is in any doubts about my thoughts on neo-liberalism, but in the short term, if you want to grow an economy that is massively based on consumerism, then to reduce the amount of people who can be active consumers is economic illiteracy.'"
Therein lies the problem. We should have an economy that is based on production (like Germany) and not consumerism. When girls and young women give "shopping" as a "hobby" on their CVs you know we're in a mess - morally, spiritually and economically. If austerity brings about a shift in values then it may well be worth it. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"OOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh (see, we can all go OTT), sorry for having an opinion about your opinion.
That's the way debates and discussion and free speech work.'"
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i see what youve done there. Very clever (well not really) just a simple yes no question is the benefit system fair and working. |
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| Quote ="Dally"If austerity brings about a shift in values then it may well be worth it.'"
It'll be easier to stop an iceberg than it would getting my clan to take up a new hobby. |
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| Quote ="Dally"If austerity brings about a shift in values then it may well be worth it.'"
I'm sure it will bring a warm glow to the heart of those in fuel poverty this winter, knowing that it'll all be worth it for the betterment of society as a whole. |
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| Quote ="liedetector"OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i see what youve done there. Very clever (well not really) just a simple yes no question is the benefit system fair and working.'"
You're right. It wasn't very clever of you to whinge and whine about being "sorry to have an opinion". Nobody has said you can't have an opinion.
Thus you appear to be whinging that anyone else has an opinion too – or more specifically, that anyone else can have an opinion about your opinion.
Well tough. If you don't like it, don't post your opinions on a public forum, because once you do that, other people are allowed to voice their opinions on yours, in exactly the same way that you are allowed to express your opinions on other people's opinions. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"You're right. It wasn't very clever of you to whinge and whine about being "sorry to have an opinion". Nobody has said you can't have an opinion.
Thus you appear to be whinging that anyone else has an opinion too – or more specifically, that anyone else can have an opinion about your opinion.
Well tough. If you don't like it, don't post your opinions on a public forum, because once you do that, other people are allowed to voice their opinions on yours, in exactly the same way that you are allowed to express your opinions on other people's opinions.'"
In your opinion, that is.
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| Quote ="El Barbudo"In your opinion, that is.
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So after all that pi55 and wind you still couldnt bring yourself to answer the question.
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| Quote ="liedetector"So after all that pi55 and wind you still couldnt bring yourself to answer the question.'"
I'll answer your question for you by giving you my opinion on the subject.
No, it is not right that someone on benefits should be earning more than someone who is working full-time but the solution is not to cut the benefits of those who cannot work full-time. Those on benefits should be given enough support to enable them to live adequately, those working full-time should be able to earn enough to live comfortably, as a minimum.
Now I have a question for you: Are you from Wakefield by any chance? |
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