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| Quote ="IR80"icon_arrow.gif The big problem is that neither can put one upmanship and politics aside and make a decision that is actually good for THE COUNTRY, it looks increasingly like we will end up with a GE, another coalition that can't really do much and the same ineffective politics we have had for 20 years.'"
I would suggest those honourable Tories (oxymoron alert) are doing exactly that. The reason that we are in this pickle is one side sees the obvious economic & social advantages of EU membership, the other side are a bunch of racists & xenophobes who still think the UK is a superior nation.
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| Quote ="tigertot"I would suggest those honourable Tories (oxymoron alert) are doing exactly that. The reason that we are in this pickle is one side sees the obvious economic & social advantages of EU membership, the other side are a bunch of racists & xenophobes who still think the UK is a superior nation.'"
The referendum result was to leave, it is a simple fact. (I voted remain, but democracy requires that we leave), Labour were clamouring for a GE, they could have one, but know they will never win with the Geography Teacher at the helm.
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| Quote ="IR80"The referendum result was to leave, it is a simple fact. (I voted remain, but democracy requires that we leave), Labour were clamouring for a GE, they could have one, but know they will never win with the Geography Teacher at the helm.'"
But you said politicians can't make a decision for the good of the country. Not wanting to commit suicide, I would suggest, could be construed as beneficial.
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| Quote ="tigertot"But you said politicians can't make a decision for the good of the country. Not wanting to commit suicide, I would suggest, could be construed as beneficial.'"
In your oppinion, not the majority of those that voted. As I say, I voted remain, but my countrymen and women voted leave. If we were to stay then the EU would meddle evn more. I don't see a positive outcome either way.
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| HOw do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more? That is just typical Mail/Sun/Express language.
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| Quote ="tigertot"HOw do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more? That is just typical Mail/Sun/Express language.'"
You keep trotting out the Mail, Express, Sun garbage, I read none of them. Out of interest, which sector do you work in, how much unnecessary beaurocracy do you come across?
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| Quote ="tigertot"I would suggest those honourable Tories (oxymoron alert) are doing exactly that. The reason that we are in this pickle is one side sees the obvious economic & social advantages of EU membership, the other side are a bunch of racists & xenophobes who still think the UK is a superior nation.'"
One side is trying to deliver the mandate they asked the country to give them. The other has a very fluid policy depending on which day it is.
They all seem very certain that another referendum will deliver a remain vote - what happens if it delivers another leave vote?
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| Quote ="IR80"You keep trotting out the Mail, Express, Sun garbage, I read none of them. Out of interest, which sector do you work in, how much unnecessary beaurocracy do you come across?'"
Answer my questions & I will answer yours. How do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more?
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"
They all seem very certain that another referendum will deliver a remain vote - what happens if it delivers another leave vote?'"
Without doubt we would have to leave. Assuming the options were clear. I have not come across anyone saying different.
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| Quote ="tigertot"Answer my questions & I will answer yours. How do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more?'"
You have no experience of dealing with EU bearocracy, that is clear. You are all for attempting to belittle peopls and attempt, in vain, to "call them out", the truth is you are a died in the wool socialist, you don't believe in democracy.
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| Quote ="IR80"You have no experience of dealing with EU bearocracy, that is clear. You are all for attempting to belittle peopls and attempt, in vain, to "call them out", the truth is you are a died in the wool socialist, you don't believe in democracy.'"
I obtain & spend EU funding. Millions. My brother worked for the EU for many years; he still does occasionally. His wife still does. My nephew is working on Brexit very close to the heart of Government. I have voted Labour once in a GE in the last 30 years. That was tactical to kick out the Tory scummer. It worked.
So tell me, How do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more?
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| Quote ="tigertot"I obtain & spend EU funding. Millions. My brother worked for the EU for many years; he still does occasionally. His wife still does. My nephew is working on Brexit very close to the heart of Government. I have voted Labour once in a GE in the last 30 years. That was tactical to kick out the Tory scummer. It worked.
So tell me, How do they 'meddle' now, and how would they meddle more?'"
Strange how i don't believe a single word of that. I'll leave you to your fantasy world Mr Mitty.
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| Quote ="IR80"icon_wink.gif Strange how i don't believe a single word of that. I'll leave you to your fantasy world Mr Mitty.'"
I appreciate you believe that only people who went to Eton & Oxbridge deserve to get on in life, & your lot is to live in a hovel on Preston Road surviving off fish scraps from Hull docks; but you really can aspire to more.
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| Quote ="tigertot"I appreciate you believe that only people who went to Eton & Oxbridge deserve to get on in life, & your lot is to live in a hovel on Preston Road surviving off fish scraps from Hull docks; but you really can aspire to more.'"
Oh dear, the sad bitter side of you is seeping out, bless.
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| It seems to me that the Boris method of leading with "no deal to get a good deal" is the only sensible way forward against the intransigent burghers of Brussels. It is just a pity that ever since the 2016 referendum certain powers have been at work to scupper the result. Certain MPs & members of elite society have completely side lined the popular vote to look towards the EU
as being in their own best interest in terms of better pay for their personal coffers & possible future jobs to be had within the EU conglomerate.
As for Corbyn ,he has more faces than the town hall clock.
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| Quote ="ninearches"It seems to me that the Boris method of leading with "no deal to get a good deal" is the only sensible way forward against the intransigent burghers of Brussels. It is just a pity that ever since the 2016 referendum certain powers have been at work to scupper the result. Certain MPs & members of elite society have completely side lined the popular vote to look towards the EU
as being in their own best interest in terms of better pay for their personal coffers & possible future jobs to be had within the EU conglomerate.
As for Corbyn ,he has more faces than the town hall clock.'"
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| Quote ="ninearches" against the intransigent burghers of Brussels. '"
What do you expect them to agree to?
Quote ="ninearches"members of elite society........ being in their own best interest in terms of better pay for their personal coffers'"
I'm presuming you typed that without any sense of irony?
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| Quote ="tigertot"Quote ="ninearches"It seems to me that the Boris method of leading with "no deal to get a good deal" is the only sensible way forward against the intransigent burghers of Brussels.'" What do you expect them to agree to?'"
The genuinely tragic thing is, so ill-informed are so many of these Brexiteers, that they genuinely believe that our European partners didn't make huge concessions as part of the withdrawal agreement. The EU negotiators got some pushback from the memer states for some of them.
But unless it's all the cake, fully eaten then they won't have any of it, regardless of what was said during the referendum campaign and their complete lack of mandate for any sort of no-deal exit.
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| Quote ="ninearches" intransigent burghers of Brussels. '"
Very broadly speaking there were always going to be three directions out of the EU.
1. Something like Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein, the members of the EEA
2. Something like Canada, with a basic free trade deal
3. No deal, WTO terms
The blame for disappointment for not getting some other imagined better deal belongs to those who imagined it and those who believed them, not the EU. People who don’t like any of the above three options probably shouldn’t have voted Leave.
The Irish border issue could and maybe should have been part of the future relationship negotiations. But given the UK government’s failure to articulate a position, and now with a deeply, deeply dishonest blustering gormclops calling the shots on our side, the EU were probably wise.
As Alan Duncan said the other day we’re all boxed in. We’ve done this to ourselves, all of us. To whine on that the EU won’t put our interests ahead of their own is utterly ridiculous, given the whole point of Brexit is meant to be us striking out by ourselves and standing on our on 140 million feet.
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| One delicious irony/horrifying reality is that Tories called this all on to see off Farage and now they’re pretty much completely beholden to him.
It is like some mad mash-up co-written Michael Dobbs, Mervyn Peake, Lewis Carroll and Franz Kafka.
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| Seem to recall it was teresa May went into the initial negotiations with the EU with the box full of Tory party majic unicorn demands and red lines.
And her eventual deal agreed would have passed were it not for the ERG Group
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| Quote ="Superblue"Seem to recall it was teresa May went into the initial negotiations with the EU with the box full of Tory party majic unicorn demands and red lines.
And her eventual deal agreed would have passed were it not for the ERG Group
'" The frothy-mouthed loons have spent all week calling Hammond and Clarke etc "traitors" and saying they were "betraying the will of the people". Putting to one side the violence of the words being used, the tragic irony is these are people who voted for Brexit time and time again earlier in the year, putting their underlying beliefs that we should remain to one side to reflect the referendum result. Whilst at the same time as you say the ERG repeatedly voting against Brexit.
But I suspect this is too complicated for some of our Brexiteer friends to get their minds around.
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| Quote ="The Ghost of '99"The genuinely tragic thing is, so ill-informed are so many of these Brexiteers, that they genuinely believe that our European partners didn't make huge concessions as part of the withdrawal agreement. The EU negotiators got some pushback from the memer states for some of them.
But unless it's all the cake, fully eaten then they won't have any of it, regardless of what was said during the referendum campaign and their complete lack of mandate for any sort of no-deal exit.'"
I would be grateful if you could please inform us of any major concessions that the EU made to us. I am certainly not aware of any. However I am aware the war monger Blair gave up part of Britain’s rebate, this on the promise that the French would sort out and reform the huge sums of money that France receive from the EU. We all know that never happened.
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Quote ="Backwoodsman"I would be grateful if you could please inform us of any major concessions that the EU made to us. I am certainly not aware of any. However I am aware the war monger Blair gave up part of Britain’s rebate, this on the promise that the French would sort out and reform the huge sums of money that France receive from the EU. We all know that never happened.'" Well for starters I recommend you stop looking at the EU as a zero sum game where "our" money gets shared out amongst others. The whole point, and it's success is well proven by now, is that this is mutually beneficial, where we all get better off by free-er, barrierless trade and movement. Where the EU funds infrastructure developments in poorer countries which get our goods to market more quickly, where the EU aligns baseline standards so that our goods can sell in other countries without having to re-engineer or re-work them. This is economically beneficial for all of us.
In terms of concessions, it's been well covered but the starting point has to be the EU's red lines, which were to protect the status of EU citizens living in the UK and to protect the interests of the Republic of Ireland, alongside the main practical red line that the single market by definition can't have an open border with a country outside it, hence the backstop. The backstop is the effect of a red line, not the red line itself - and the EU have asked time and time again for Britain to come up with a workable alternative which also tallies with the red lines unilaterally set out by the Conservative government: that we would not be a member of the customs union or the single market - these red lines were not mandated by the referendum result and are the root cause of our current issues because by going for such a hard Conservative Brexit the May government gave away the support they may have otherwise received from Labour in Parliament.
But here's a summary of what the EU conceded -
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKCN1NL1WA
But the simple fact is, if you decide not to be part of the EU, not to be part of the customs union, not to be part of the Single Market and not to pay into the EU budget, then you are starting from a weak position. Conservative politicians have been demanding the benefits from all those things but don't want the mechanics that make them work.
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Quote ="Backwoodsman"I would be grateful if you could please inform us of any major concessions that the EU made to us. I am certainly not aware of any. However I am aware the war monger Blair gave up part of Britain’s rebate, this on the promise that the French would sort out and reform the huge sums of money that France receive from the EU. We all know that never happened.'" Well for starters I recommend you stop looking at the EU as a zero sum game where "our" money gets shared out amongst others. The whole point, and it's success is well proven by now, is that this is mutually beneficial, where we all get better off by free-er, barrierless trade and movement. Where the EU funds infrastructure developments in poorer countries which get our goods to market more quickly, where the EU aligns baseline standards so that our goods can sell in other countries without having to re-engineer or re-work them. This is economically beneficial for all of us.
In terms of concessions, it's been well covered but the starting point has to be the EU's red lines, which were to protect the status of EU citizens living in the UK and to protect the interests of the Republic of Ireland, alongside the main practical red line that the single market by definition can't have an open border with a country outside it, hence the backstop. The backstop is the effect of a red line, not the red line itself - and the EU have asked time and time again for Britain to come up with a workable alternative which also tallies with the red lines unilaterally set out by the Conservative government: that we would not be a member of the customs union or the single market - these red lines were not mandated by the referendum result and are the root cause of our current issues because by going for such a hard Conservative Brexit the May government gave away the support they may have otherwise received from Labour in Parliament.
But here's a summary of what the EU conceded -
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brit ... SKCN1NL1WA
But the simple fact is, if you decide not to be part of the EU, not to be part of the customs union, not to be part of the Single Market and not to pay into the EU budget, then you are starting from a weak position. Conservative politicians have been demanding the benefits from all those things but don't want the mechanics that make them work.
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| Getting back on the election trail, that is not actually agreed yet.
Why is Boris allowed to go campaigning in Wakefield before the election is actually agreed ??
Those poor trainees having to stand and listen to his lies and waffle, just so that he could pretend to be the leader with "law & order" credentials for the party that cut 18,000 police and now expects them to stand and cheer for announcing the first steps to replace them, what an utter tool.
It's a shame that his own brother has got fed up of him though.
When your own family tell you that you are making a huge mistake, sometimes it's better to listen to them or, it will end in tears further down the line.
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