Women who supported their men, liberated and politically educated themselves during a strike in 1984.
That would bear more relevance to me.
I admire Mandela also.

Like Gerry and Martin?

Oh, I have a pretty high regard for both of them, for precisely that reason.

I similarly have a high regard for John Major for taking what was an equally courageous step, politically, to move away from the idea of seeing the Northern Ireland situation as only something that could be 'won' by military force, and moving towards negotiation.

In the case of Adams and Martin, they would quite possibly have been murdered if things hadn't gone as they have. In Major's case, it could have been political suicide – there was much opinion against it – but it should be considered a very good legacy.

In the South African situation, one should also remember that de Klerk – no matter how he'd started out – made the right decisions to follow the right, very different path.

I think it was pretty easy for him in the end.
When a regime is so oppressively, overtly, indecent, you run out of options of places to be able to run.
I wonder what Ajw's opinion on his heroines inability to condemn said regime is?

The step still needs to be taken and more than once in human history, leaders in such a position have chosen the path of increased violence. There was vast opposition to what happened.



And this is also why I will not condemn, out of hand, a violent response.

It would have been lovely for all if South Africa had not been a situation where violence was required to bring about change, but given the nature and behaviour of the ruling party – a regime that shot unarmed schoolchildren calling for the right to a decent education – that was not a possibility.

To suggest otherwise is a bit like saying that, if only we'd used the right words, we didn't really need to go to war against Hitler.

In the case of South Africa, both the armed struggle and sanctions contributed to the end result.

And the greatest blame for that can be fairly laid at the feet of European colonialists.

We fought and bought/sold the whole continent and carved it up to suit ourselves, without a thought to tribal or clan boundaries. Once the European govenors buggered off home, leaving them with some form of our democracy and judicial systems, there's little wonder most of the continent has, over time spiralled into chaos

I fear you ain't seen nothing yet. It has always been my fear that wjen Mr Mandela died things would spiral down. The fact he lived so long has helped but I am not so sure how things develop.

I think the big issue, which you have expressed in a round about way, is that people were taken from an often stoneage culture into a "modern" one within a generation or two. That took Europe many centuries to achieve.

Looks like Godfrey Bloom has got Dally's login for the night.

This very statement shows you are nothing like Mandela. He didn't attribute or seek out blame.

A mate of mine works with the UN, South Sudan at the minute, DR Congo before that. He was hoping to be at the headquarters in New York by now. His general view is that South Africa is a basket case and on the precipice of a Zimbabwe type meltdown. That's assuming HIV/Aids doesn't kill everyone. In 1990 the life expectancy was 62, by 2007 that had dropped to 50.

Yes, that's what I fear. Zimbabwe used to be a pretty good place. Even when I visted 20 odd years ago the writing was on the wall though.

I don't think this world would be as advanced (in terms of technology etc.) without expansionism/empires. I'm only speculating but I doubt that we would be able to comunicate over this medium this if history had gone along a different path.

Sorry for going OT.

Race must still be a big issue in South Africa because I can't see a reason why the ANC nutters keep getting into power.

I heard an interesting interview on the radio today, but didn't catch who it was, sounded like an elderly South African. He said Mandela was a great man. A fascinating man whose greatest achievement was not the changes he helped bring to South Africa, but the changes he made to himself. He said the young Mandela was reactionary, angry and often intolerant to opinions of others and a difficult and awkward man, particularly in his relationships with his own family. The personal journey he went on in prison sounds as fascinating a story as that of his political achievements. There were also a few questions raised about his political actions when in power, particularly about his ignorance of the severity of the problem posed by HIV/AIDS. Even relatively late in his life when in power he was still willing to learn, to let education and communication change his mind, even if he'd held a different view for a long time. One example mentioned was his economic policies. He apparently left prison still believing in an almost communist economic model, but changed his mind when discussing the dangers and pitfalls of it with China's leaders.

I have distant family in SA.

The country is often portrayed as some sort of utopia for freedom and fairness.

As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, it used to be whites shafting blacks, now it is blacks shafting blacks. It could well go to rat-poop and end up like Zimbabwe. Which would be a shame.

Now you've said that. I'm wondering now if it is beyond the realms of possibility that in this statement is more of a self-reflection of himself.
[i
“No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.”
[/i

High regard for those pieces of scum, you really do take the biscuit. The IRA lost, they had nowhere to go.. Do we have a united ireland, , no and we're not going to. Adams and McGuiness haven't changed, they're just drunk on power.

Looks like I'm moving here (I'm in joburg now for a four day orientation) next year for a couple of years, so - update to follow!

Everyone pretty sad here in SA. No protests or demos or anything like that though.

Good luck. A lad I worked with went back home to SA for good a few years ago. Within a few months he came back here.

You only need to look at the lovely houses you can get so cheap there to realise what most people's long term view is. They are cheaper than in alot of poorer African countries.

There is something predictable and slightly nauseous as World leaders fall over each other in their haste to out eulogise each other, with Obama being a prime example. All apparently signed up to the mantra that it doesn't matter where you start from, but where you end up. And I wonder who will be the first to mention that for many Politicians, for many years Mandella as head of the armed wing of the ANC, was viewed as a terrorist, whose freedom fighters committed atrocities in their pursuit of their political goals.

Don't get me wrong. I firmly believe if you feel within yourself that any act in pursuit of what you believe in is justified.....the ends justifies the means.....is ok, then you must accept the consequences of that mindset, and I'm sure Mandella, as a young man was prepared to give his life in the pursuit of his goals.

That he emerged from that lengthy incarceration unbroken, and willingly took the hand of his oppressors, shows that he had evolved into a better human being and is a great example of the strength of the human spirit. As dear departed Kirkstallers may have said.....he displayed perfectly, the very best of the Christian Spirit.

Personally, I tend towards the Rod Liddle point of view. Nice guy....outstanding human being.....but is there really any need for the wall to wall media coverage?

If it gets a complete [is[/ihitbag like Liddle animated, then I'd encourage it even more

Mention nothing of the Diana-esque outpouring of 'grief', both in the media and on social networks.

I really don't understand why people feel the need to rock up outside the SA Embassy in London in floods of tears to leave flowers.

Oh i got plenty of pelters on Facebook yesterday for this:

Unless you're South African or were somehow affected by the Apartheid... Shut.the F**k.up...

Thanks

Yet we don't have the discrimination that existed on the basis of religion.

And I'll have a custard cream, thank you.

I remember Nelson Mandela cutting that woman down to size with a few well chosen words when she tried to cosy up to him.
A great thinker , orator and freedom fighter with compassion for all, something that woman would struggle to even start to comprehend.