Exactly. I am in a small 2 bedroom, 1 reception room bungalow. There are approximately 15 or so bungalows of this style in my cul de sac. None of them have their lofts converted. At least 6 of those use their "spare bedroom" as either a dining room or a utility room as the kitchen is very small. I don't as we have a conservatory that acts as my dining room, but even so, I don't have a bed in my "spare bedroom". We are mortgaged so the bedroom tax doesn't effect us but if it did and I wasn't disabled I would seriously be arguing about what my "spare room" is used for. Unless it specifically states on the plans of the property who are they to judge what is a bedroom and what isn't?

It would appear, according to the article that I linked to at the start, that the only requirement for a bedroom to be classed as a bedroom is if it says bedroom on the lease - if you've rented a "three bedroomed house" for instance and you declare that you and your two boys aged under 10 yrs will be living there, then that is as much information as they need to reduce your housing benefit, it really seems to be that simple.

I'm inclined to believe that its been drafted so simply as well because the solution from Leeds City Council is so simple as to not actually be a loophole but to have found a wide open gate through which to casually stroll without shutting it behind you.

The only downside I suppose is that their rental income may reduce in future if they have to reclassify three bed houses to two beds and an unclassified room, but maybe that won't happen either and in any case its still cheaper, and therefore more cost effective to me as a ratepayer, than having to prosecute thousands of council house tenants who are in arrears with absolutely no chance of ever repaying - it also saves me the embarrassment of having to walk through this city in future and see families of former council house tenants living rough on the streets or being thrown out of B&B accommodation during daylight hours.

Still no further response from Barry Anderson.

He must be very busy.

I am agreeing with you, I'm just pointing out that the last lot were just as bad when it came to poor legislation.

It'd be cheaper anyway mate, as has already been shown in London. Some families have already been evicted but the council has a legal duty to house them, so they're paying for B&B, or paying even higher rents (with concommitant higher housing subsidy) for a smaller unit in the private sector.

As has already been said, it's "The Thick Of It" in real-time

A good friend of mine gave up his two bed house and moved to a one bed GF flat to avoid having to pay the extra only to be hit with a double whammy today, he has been informed his incapacity has been stopped and as of end of June he will be transferred onto job seekers and expected to find work. He is 59 years old and had polio as a child, despite being inconvenience with leg problems he got an apprenticeship as a plumber and worked up to having an accident (caused by his worsening leg issues) and damaged his back and his hip on his good leg. He was off work for months and refused incapacity at first and got a job in a warehouse (office based), but he could not continue and was put on incapacity around 9 years ago. He has progressively got worse and cannot walk too far.

This assessment was done by 'tick box' and he was not assessed by a specialist, even though his GP has said he is incapable of any meaningful work. He is appealing against it.

We are not talking a work shy scrounger (as the Tories are fond of labelling people), but someone who was devastated to stop work. If this is what this government (both sides of it) is about, the sooner they are consigned to history the better.

Are these assessments done by an assessor in a meeting or personally? If in a meeting, does the assessed person have to sign at the end?

The reason I ask is that I believe people need to be firm and where the rigid form is inappropriate to their circumstances refuse to fill in the boxes (if completing personally). Just write next to relevant questions "form wholly inapproriate - see attached notes" and then fill in free form explaining circumstances, with doctor's / whatever report(s) attached. If someone else fills in and requests a signature, just refuse to sign until amended as I suggest. That's certainly what I do with daft forms. If the assessor then goes back and unilaterally makes up the answers would they have no chance at appeal. Make the buggers do some work for their fees rather than ticking boxes. If administering the system starts to cost either ATOS or whoever of HMG they'll soon drop the silly process.

Solution - Tax Oxygen.

Doesn't fit the coalition model.
Now, if you'd said "Privatise oxygen", you'd have a seat in the Lords by now.

I presume he was assessed by an Atos Health Care Professional? Which could be anything from a Doctor, to a nurse to a physiotherapist. Tell him to appeal and provide Atos with every single piece of medical proof he can get his hands on. I got my physio, consultant, rheumatology nurse, hip specialist, knee specialist, podiatrist and GP to write letters. In the "good old days" if the DWP wanted any extra information they would write to your GP or consultant but with Atos the onus is on the patient to provide every bit of medical evidence. I think he has upto 28 days to appeal and he will recieve the appeal rate money. Be warned though, the appeals are taking weeks even months before they are reviewed.

I know how he feels, I have been fighting this battle with them for 2 years now. Tell him to never give up as that is what they rely on you to do. Good luck for him

People have aready done things similar or queried the credentials of the "health care professional" and they have been put down as a "no show" and their money withdrawn. I know there is a lot going on around mental health and having an Atos assesment as mental health has to be assessed by a fully qualified mental health care specialist not just some random physiotherapist that Atos are employing......watch this space!!

O/T but related to the above posts - there's an interesting letter in last week's [iPrivate Eye[/i about wheelchair access to ATOS assessment centres (following an article in the previous issue about the lack of accessible centres).

Effectively the opinion is that if people [ucan[/u get in when there is no wheelchair access they are not disabled, so potentially fit for work and if they [ucan't[/u get in, they are considered as "failed to attend" and have benefits stopped.

Quite far fetched, so possibly true.

Quote ="Chris28"O/T but related to the above posts - there's an interesting letter in last week's [iPrivate Eye[/i about wheelchair access to ATOS assessment centres (following an article in the previous issue about the lack of accessible centres). Effectively the opinion is that if people [ucan[/u get in when there is no wheelchair access they are not disabled, so potentially fit for work and if they [ucan't[/u get in, they are considered as "failed to attend" and have benefits stopped. Quite far fetched, so possibly true.'" From last year Chris; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20423701 Ours in Hull is Stanley Street which is all on one level. Its also not the only things that can get your benefit stopped. Some have been known to use CCTV in the car park and if you drive yourself you are fit for work. If you look nice and have makeup on and nice hair you are deemed to be able to get yourself ready and be fit for work. One of the favourite questions is "Did you watch Eastenders/Corrie/Emmerdale last night", you think they are being polite but if you say yes then you are deemed able to sit still for half an hour and be fit for work. Another is "Do you have pets?" If you say yes and leave it at that, then you are deemed capable of looking after pets therefore fit for work. The answers have to be "Yes I did watch TV but had to get up/stretch (or whatever) after about 10 minutes, etc" and "Yes I have two dogs but my spouse is their primary care giver." And never go looking presentable either!!

Quote ="Chris28"O/T but related to the above posts - there's an interesting letter in last week's [iPrivate Eye[/i about wheelchair access to ATOS assessment centres (following an article in the previous issue about the lack of accessible centres). Effectively the opinion is that if people [ucan[/u get in when there is no wheelchair access they are not disabled, so potentially fit for work and if they [ucan't[/u get in, they are considered as "failed to attend" and have benefits stopped. Quite far fetched, so possibly true.'" From last year Chris; www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20423701 Ours in Hull is Stanley Street which is all on one level. Its also not the only things that can get your benefit stopped. Some have been known to use CCTV in the car park and if you drive yourself you are fit for work. If you look nice and have makeup on and nice hair you are deemed to be able to get yourself ready and be fit for work. One of the favourite questions is "Did you watch Eastenders/Corrie/Emmerdale last night", you think they are being polite but if you say yes then you are deemed able to sit still for half an hour and be fit for work. Another is "Do you have pets?" If you say yes and leave it at that, then you are deemed capable of looking after pets therefore fit for work. The answers have to be "Yes I did watch TV but had to get up/stretch (or whatever) after about 10 minutes, etc" and "Yes I have two dogs but my spouse is their primary care giver." And never go looking presentable either!!

Isn't there also a far greater chance of a successful appeal if the apellant attends in person? I realise that Atos do not make attendance easy but maybe that's the very reason?

The whole sense of justice has turned on its head with the disabled having to prove they really are disable (innocent) after being declared to be not disabed (guilty)

A different DWP assesor will look at the form you provided again with any extra that you have submitted in the meantime which you are quite entitled to do, provided it reaches them within the 28 day limit. Its always worth getting the original assesment back as well, so you know what you have scored points on and what you haven't. If you "fail" again you will be given a chance to take it to tribunal (an independent panel) and its then you have to go in person, always with someone with you. People don't realise that its the DWP who actually make the decision, not Atos, they just ask the (rather ludicrous) questions on behalf of the DWP.

Not sure of who assessed him, going to see him tomorrow to see if there is anything I can help with.

Government "agencies" are all in it together. For instance if someone has major need for specialist education the local authority will spend all their time internally arguing how much should be paid by "education", "social care" and "health" where there are complex needs. They will not make provision but waste ten of thousands of pounds in internal meetings and producing nonsense paperwork. Much better to either spend that on front-line care or else if they are not going to do anything useful get rid of all the beaurocrats. But worse than that they are very reluctant to cross-refer to say the NHS for funding in cases of long-term continuing need, which you might expect a local authority to do in order to get out of paying themselves. There must be some reason for the reluctance - they get in trouble, there is some potential reciprocal financial comeback, etc. Whatever, it's a crazy state of affairs.

Just got back from visiting my mate and he has told me what has gone on and it seems that all they are trying to do is get people off benefits, no matter what. He told me that he sent them information via a web site and then was given an appointment to go for his assessment. When he arrived he was told to wait in a seating area and was kept waiting for nearly an hour in view of the reception. When he was called in he had to walk up a corridor, up a set of stairs and along another corridor. During the assessment he was told that he had answered four of the queries already, namely he could use a computer, site for up to an hour, walk the minimum distance required and climb a flight of stairs. He was given a pen to fill a questionnaire out which proved he could use his hands.

He needed 15 points to keep his benefit and was given a score of 'zero' and told his benefits would stop.

Being a fiesty 2@, he asked what jobs he could do and if they could get him a placement in a workplace environment, but was told it was nothing to do with them, they just assessed to a set criteria and he could appeal if he wished.

He has asked me to be a referee on his behalf as I have known him since he was in his twenties and to give evidence as to his deterioration over the recent years, but he was told not to hold out much hope as the decision is unlikely to be reversed.

He is willing to work (in fact would love to), but an assessment of an hour does not set the full story of his situation, I have been to see him on days he has not been able to get out of bed and is high on pain killers, like most people in his situation he has good and bad days and I doubt many employers would put up with the likely levels of time off he will need over a prolonged period.

Tory Britain 2013.

Aye, and the banks carry on swallowing our money.
Whose bloody country is it?

Pop down to The Grove Hotel, Watford this weekend and ask [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/05/bilderberg-2013-goldman-sachs-watfordThe Bilderberg Group[/url. Those fookers are running the world, not just our country

A bunch of absolute a-holes.

Unfortunately after Miliband's little speech today, I seriously fear for anyone in this country who is not of independent means, post 2015.

It's come to something when Labour feel they have to appear to be as big a bunch of bastads as any tory, simply to suck up to the middle classes and the media that decide their itinerary.

I have always had faith in the power of the ballot box, that faith is waning rapidly and I'm coming to the conclusion that the best thing everyone of voting age could do on election day 2015 is stay at home. If nobody votes for any of these fookers, they may just get the message.

Which is almost exactly what the corporatocracy would love.

Then the only alternative is revolution or at least, public revolt.

I'm not talking about a couple od days rioting, I mean storming the strongholds of the new ruling class. Ripping the gates to their communities off their hinges and taking over their mansions and opening the doors to the poor. Almost all politicians are in awe to the corporatocracy, they rely on their patronage and would suck enough corporate cock to put a handrail round the British coastline.

I'm 61, I've been cognisant of governments of various hues for over 50 years. I was one of the early recipients of Beveridge's brave new world. We moved into a brand new council house before my 2nd birthday, prior to that I benefited from the NHS by being born in a dedicated maternity hospital and at 6 months of age, I also had major surgery after the family dog nearly ripped my eye out. I was immunised or innoculated against what were killer diseases. My ex-wife suffered from polio as a child but she received emergency care and post-trauma treatment so she could live a normal life, without having to wear the leg-irons what were still all too prevalent in my youth.

I know what to expect from a tory government, I never expected to hear a Labour leader confirm that he would continue to shaft the less able in our society. Basically, as far as Labour are concerned, I've shat 'em and if I ever meet Miliband, I'd probably lamp the 2@