Well, there is, though. One or two insurance companies will insure young drivers if they fit what amounts to a mini-tachograph. What if someone has demonstrated bad driving (eg convicted of careless or dangerous driving) - is there a case that they can only have their licence back if for 9say) 2 years they have a device fitted, and take it to be analysed once every X weeks - with power to withdraw the licence if it evidences speeding, harsh driving etc.? We seem to have the technology, and it ought to be "user pays"

Yes, I don't think it's at all restricted to car drivers, but without a doubt. One aspect of it is "road rage" where the slightest perceived slight can cause the most disproportionate response. Another is the ability of young males to acquire high powered cars, and run them with no owner registration and no insurance, like friggin' dodgems with no regard at all for anyone else, middle finger at the ready.

The standard of driving is very low in this country but I don't think it's something that more driving lessons (necessarily) can fix; as I think the root cause of the problem is people being too aggressive, impatient and generally oblivious to everything going on around/drive like they are the only person on the road.

I find many of these to be middle aged men and young girls. The young blokes just tend to knowingly drive around like loons.

I'm not sure about that, but certainly don't see it as the main issue (although the criminal failure to give, or even allow, motorway training is an exception).

I think I am coming round to the view that, at least for those who show they are in need of it, some form of technological continuous assessment is about the only thing that would work.


This sort of thing.

Yeah if someone has been convicted of a certain degree of "bad driving" then I'd be all for some sort of monitoring system placed in their cars. However the problem is you're often dealing with pillocks who don't care and would possibly just drive while banned anyway and so wouldn't accept the system.
It might work in some cases though, but I would only be supportive of it for people convicted, not a blanket measure for new/young drivers, which I think is what the insurance companies want.

Also this obviously isn't applicable to a driving test/driving lessons, where I was saying that some more education/information would be helpful in things like motorway driving and driving and reacting to different conditions.

Telemetry technology is reasonably mature now and could be employed to monitor/police many driver functions and behaviour. [url=http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/96330924.htmlIn-car breathalysers[/url have been used in some US states for many years in an attempt to mitigate re-offending among convicted drunk drivers. We also have the technology to remotely control most vehicles' maximum speed too. OK there are quite a number of vehicles that are not suitable but the vast majority on the road now are capable of such controls. It would however be a brave national government that introduces them but they could always hide behind "faceless Brussels beaurocrats"

But this is not remotely a reason for not doing it. The fact some would try to ignore/evade it needs to be dealt with by workable methods of enforcement, detection and punishment.


But the insurers do not HAVE to insure anybody. As of now, if you don't want to have a "tracker" and pay cheaper premiums, young people can feel free to pay the full monty several grand. Again, the problem of young driver premiums is not going to go away, insurance companies may be lying, cheating, devious moneygrabbers equivalent to bankers, but I wouldn't insure a young male at any cost, when one tearaway ride might leave me with a bill of millions, competitive premiums WOULD be available if the risk profiles were not so bad.

having said which, the one thing that would certainly halve premiums overnight would be finding some way to keep uninsured drivers as near as possible 100% off the road.

So you are judging the standard of all instructors by the actions of this one.



I fully agree with you in that more could be done.
I have had a driving test cancelled this morning due to snow. Yet i teach in snow when we have it.
I also teach in fog. You will not take a driving test in the fog as it would be cancelled.

You make it sound so easy. How can i teach a pupil how to drive in snow/fog if we dont get it during lessons.
Now if we leave that for after test. How many people would pay extra to take lessons?
I can tell you not many.
I offer motorway lessons and the take up is very low.



There are lots of plans being talked about to improve driver training.
The trouble is its always talk and no action.

The thing is Graeme i teach to a higher standard than the test.
A hell of a lot of hard working driving instructors do the same.

I wish i could get learners onto motorways. I live fairly close to a few and could do it in a two hour lesson.
The trouble is what about people who live far away from motorways. How could they learn. There is talk of allowing a driving instructor to take a learner on a motorway. This would only be a instructor.

Just out of interest Graeme, what do think needs to be done?

What would happen if we don't get snow in your parts for, lets say two years. Would you be happy to pay for extra training in the snow two years after passing your test?



Now we are seeing the bigger picture.



So i take it you and the rest of the general public would be happy to pay more?

Your right it is.
Maybe everyone who has not had motorway lessons should be made to have one.

I started telling my pupils who had passed there driving test. To have a look at the co-op insurance scheme.
They fit a black box type device. It measures acceleration, braking and cornering forces.
It then rates each journey undertaken. Scores each drive 1 to 5. You can check on-line to see what your score is.
If you drive well you get lower insurance the next year.

Not one and i mean not one have taken it out.
The reason its very expensive and they can get it cheaper elsewhere.

Aren't there places where they can recreate certain driving conditions to test how the cars themselves react to different conditions?
I understand it's not easy but I do think many accidents happen because people don't know what to do in the event of a skid on ice for example or how to approach a small hill in the snow.

I'm happy to pay more because I think something as important and potentially dangerous as driving should be more stringently tested and learners given more instruction than is currently happening. It costs more to become a qualified rugby league coach for only 3 years than it currently does for a driving test to licence you for life.
This is not a criticism of driving instructors, just that I think there should be more teaching given to learners before theyre allowed to drive on their own.

Yes there are. You can do it on a skid pan.
This is something i looked into. I was going to take 4 pupils who had passed.
The only trouble is the cost. I could not get a better price than £130 each at the time.
I wasn't going to charge anything. Just cover my fuel.
Not one person would take it up as it was to dear.



I have had parents, ask me to give there kids, more lessons than i said they needed. The reason they wanted there kids to be safe.
This is very rare.
A lot of people are trying to learn on the cheap. If you make learning to drive very expensive people will just drive illegally.



Like what?
I am generally interested in what you think needs to be done.

A compulsory set amount of hours before you can apply for test with a tick off system that shows you've had a lesson in most weathers/conditions ie Bright Sunshine, rain, icy or snow conditions, night time driving, rush hour.

A longer test

Skid pan training

Compulsory motorway training

---------------------------
On passing your test draconian rules for the first 2 years

No car over a 1.3L and fixed limit on BHP output (stops souped up 1.3 death traps) for 2 years.

Blameworthy accidents in first 2 years means having to go for an assessment on your driving and possible license revocation if not satisfactory.

Keep the 6 points rule.

Telemetric insurance.
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10 years after passing and every 10 years there after having to attend a one day driving class to bring up any new road rules etc and one day driving assessment only for the basis of ironing out faults and bad habits that may have crept in .

Not sure about this. Lets say you tell someone they have to have 40 hours. What happens if they are good enough after 30. People will moan about being ripped off.
So what happens if it doesnt snow. Would it people cant then drive in the snow?



I would agree with this. One hour long should be enough.



Good idea, but i bet it would be hard to set up.



Fully agree with that.
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Not enough police to enforce it.



I would not limit engine size, but would limit engine power.



Agree with half of it. The driving assessment would not be a true reflection of how someone drives.



Agree with that.




Agree with that as well.
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This should be every 5 years. And a full medical and eye sight test as well.

Now what about all those who have already passed and are driving like clowns?

I literally nearly died today on the A64, was doing less than the speed limit on a single carriageway coming upto a small blind hill, when I am greeted with an Audi who was overtaking a lorry. Both of us slammed on, the woman ragged her car behind the lorry as I swerved. I had to pull over shortly after, I was actually in shock, my life is actually in the hands of these horrible creatures. I prefer Motorway driving anyday.

fx>Drives past at high speed waving and texting<fx



[size=150Cooeee![/size

Icy or snow, basically very cold wintery conditions, even if it doesn't snow we always have minus temperatures that alter the road conditions.

I think this would be better done on a skid pan.
Then things could be covered closer together.

I was in a bad accident in 2009 i'd just bought a new car, i went round to show it to my mate, on the way home with my wife a woman overtook a car on a bend and hit me head on at 40mph, i've never been the same since physically and mentally and it's made me look at driving completely differently, it's made me realise tbh that it doesn't matter how safe i am as long as their are idiots on the road, i'm always at risk.
I drive as safe as i can though as i feel it gives me a fraction more time to react should anything happen outside my control.

I'm hearing what you are saying, I understand that there are parts of Bradford that lead the world in this sort of thing

A change of attitude is needed. I'm sure I read somewhere a few years ago that there was a marked correlation between the end of a Grand Prix and a slight, but measurable and predictable, increase in car accidents.

As long as cars are driven by d'keds like Clarkson and cohorts around a circuit to see if they can get the to step out, they're going to have idiots with no experience trying to do the same with their little chavmobile. I'm just glad there is no motorbike equivelent to Top Gear, the roads would be even more full of Rossi wannabes.
Yes, middle lane hoggers, ditherers and the rest are a problem, but they're nowhere near as much of an issue as spotty little herberts in souped up rotboxes thinking they can become the next Formula 1 champion by practicing on main roads.

Just to head back a few pages, am I the only one that believes Cod'eds assertations? Are the rest of you such poor drivers that you honestly can't see that forward planning, and a vehicle limited to 56mph, can make you a better driver? I'm in his shoes.. I've had advanced riding lessons - yes, you can do them on a scooter - and it changed so many of my bad habits and taught me a lot that I've not had a fraction of the scares and spills which scattered me across various roads previously.

The one thing we all forget - you have a driving 'licence', not a driving 'right'. It's time there was more emphasis put on this.

You can indeed do an advanced driving course, and an advanced driving test. There isn't an official one, but it is a service offered by various providers. It could be made compulsory to do such a course and pass the test within (say) 2 years of passing the basic test. With licence restrictions on engine cc, bhp and speed in the meantime.

That sounds like The Wincanton Under 18 Street Racing Club, only very little about their Novas is souped up, apart from a big bore exhaust. Their usual circuit is from Morrison's car park through the town to the Memorial Hall car park & back again. They were seriously peeved on Friday when the High Street was closed off for the Christmas Fair but by 10.00pm they were back in action again.

On the subject of uninsured drivers, I wouldn't wait until they could supply evidence that the vehicle is insured to get it out of the compound. Unless they could categorically prove that their vehicle was insured at the time they were stopped, then crush it, simple as. There are more than enough high-end & luxury cars being driven uninsured and it shouldn't matter who the driver is or what vehicle he drives. If it's uninsured, it becomes a little cube.