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| Quote ="Mugwump"I really can't be bothered debating with these nonsensical fools who accuse the victims of being equally culpable as the aggressors. In their topsy-turvy, bubble-gum world ten million people could be obliterated by some invading, genocidal army but let half-a-dozen of them band together and exact revenge upon non-combatants living on OCCUPIED LAND and suddenly they, the ten million dead and anyone else lucky enough to be left alive are instantly [uEQUALLY AS BAD[/u as the aggressors.
I agree that in some cases it is very often difficult to identify the party at fault. But not here. The Palestinians were appallingly short-changed by Britain, the UN and later Israel when their lands were pulled from under their feet without representation. The surrounding Arab states didn't help immediately after and both they and the Israelis combined to deny what little land the Palestinians had left. After this point the responsibility is solely Israel's. They had no moral or legal right to the occupied territories and they should have withdrawn. Period. Instead they not only fortified their positions but embarked on a cynical policy of gradually appropriating Palestinian territory (usually the most irrigated and fertile) in sufficiently small amounts not to attract the politically unwelcome label of conquerors.
The Palestinians, after years of fruitless negotiations in which they couldn't win so much as an inch of concessions out of the Israelis (often they weren't even allowed to bring maps to the discussion table - as was the case years later at Oslo, the much-vaunted "peace process" Israelis claim Palestinians reneged on despite the fact that one of the ISRAELI chief negotiators later claimed even he wouldn't have signed ) , then - quite understandably - resorted to more direct and desperate forms of action. Do I agree with it? No. Do I understand it? [uAbsolutely. [/u
Kosh, Smokey and the rest of these armchair general Custers would have us believe that despite the litany of injustices listed above and in Norman Finkelstein's eloquent and morally forceful summation of the conflict, despite the appallingly one-sided casualty rate (which itself speaks volumes about the colossal disparity of men, materiel, foreign aid etc.) this AUTOMATICALLY makes them "just as bad" as the Israelis.
By their rationale - the Native Americans were "just as bad" as the conquering colonists. Ditto the Incas and the Mayans against Cortez and Pizarro. And any sane person would recognise this as phooey.'"
Carefeul Mugwump, because once Smokey sees this he will proceed to brow beat you into submission with response after response after response . Pretty much what all pro Israeli defenders do to all detractors.
Anyway, could be a great day at the UN for the Palestinians.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"Some waffle completely missing the point.'"
I see your comprehension skills are still taking second place to your penchant for rhetoric. Well done you.
Come back when you've actually managed to understand what people have been saying to you.
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| Quote ="El Barbudo"My interpretation of events of the last few decades is that, regardless of what they say, Israel does not want a two-state solution, preferring rather to have a policy of constant encroachment across the West Bank and a squeezing of Gaza towards some kind of elimination, possibly by adoption into Egypt, aiming towards a non-existence of Palestine as any kind of state.'"
I think your interpretation is pretty close to the truth. The preferred outcome would be to sweep the Palestinians into the sea and hand their lands over to the settlers. Given the recent influx of large numbers of Jews from the former communist states the Israeli government is under extreme pressure to provide lebensraum.
The second best solution would be to force the Palestinians to accept the manageable (for the Israelis) governance of Egypt (Gaza) and Jordan (the West Bank). That said, the recent shenanigans south of the border may make Israel think twice.
Sans the above I think we'll see the continuation of expansion into Palestinian territories (especially those which are cultivatable or water bearing), a ratcheting up of the system of segregation none dare call precisely what it is - Apartheid, and ever more one-sided death tolls.
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International Board Member | 2155 | No Team Selected |
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| I want to know why Hillary thinks the UN recognition of a Palestinian state obstructs the path to a peaceful agreement between Israel and the palestinians? The fact is the only peaceful solution Israel wants is one in which there are no longer any Palestinians living anywhere in the region.
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| Quote ="World of Redboy"I want to know why Hillary thinks the UN recognition of a Palestinian state obstructs the path to a peaceful agreement between Israel and the palestinians? The fact is the only peaceful solution Israel wants is one in which there are no longer any Palestinians living anywhere in the region.'"
Isn't that also what the Palestinians want, in fact Hamas want the total annihilation of Israel. Lets have some balance.
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| Quote ="rover49"Isn't that also what the Palestinians want, in fact Hamas want the total annihilation of Israel. Lets have some balance.'"
Do keep up lad
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| And Netanyahu's response to overwhelming worldwide criticism (including, Britain - which is at least suggesting it might withdraw its ambassador - a rarity in itself) regarding YET MORE new settlements on Palestinian land?
[i"We will carry on building in Jerusalem and in all the places that are on the map of Israel's strategic interests."[/i
And there you have it.
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| Quote ="rover49"Isn't that also what the Palestinians want, in fact Hamas want the total annihilation of Israel. Lets have some balance.'"
Yes. That's why Hamas acknowledged the right of Israel to exist a number of years ago.
Yet see today's quote from Netanyahu – as posted by Mugwump.
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| Yet the destruction of Israel is still part of their charter.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Yet the destruction of Israel is still part of their charter.'"
Ah yes – charters.
Thankfully, Israel hasn't got a charter that states that it will spend decades actually pursuing a policy that means the destruction of any hope of a Palestine.
Even the UK government is in a slight tizz about this latest demonstration of an absolute lack of interest in a peaceful, two-state solution.
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| And launching hundreds of rockets at civilian areas is showing a commitment to a peaceful two state solution?
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"And launching hundreds of rockets at civilian areas is showing a commitment to a peaceful two state solution?'"
Yes, dear.
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| As I have said, I don’t have sympathy for murderers because they are incompetent murderers. Strangely you do.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"As I have said, I don’t have sympathy for murderers because they are incompetent murderers. Strangely you do.'"
No. You've simply made it clear that you sympathise with neo-fascist bullies, and condemn their victims for daring to put up any form of resistance.
I can imagine you being appalled by the behaviour of the Resistance or the ANC too. Indeed, that was pretty much Margaret Thatcher's line.
Who'd a thunk it, eh? SmokeyTA – son of Thatcher.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"As I have said, I don’t have sympathy for murderers because they are incompetent murderers. Strangely you do.'"
On the contrary you have sympathy for competent murderers.
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| Quote ="JACK DETH"On the contrary you have sympathy for competent murderers.'"
But they are white; and essentially European.
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| Another 3,000 homes to be illegally built on Palestinian land.
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| Quote ="Dead Man Walking"Another 3,000 homes to be illegally built on Palestinian land.'"
Well indeed. But Smokey tells us that if the Palestinians dare object, that'll be 'anti-semetic'.
Of course.
And Smokey himself isn't a raving Nazi.
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| Quote ="Mintball"Well indeed. But Smokey tells us that if the Palestinians dare object, that'll be 'anti-semetic'.
Of course.
And Smokey himself isn't a raving Nazi.'"
Also in that case if anyone on here says Israel are wrong then are we anti-semitic too ?
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| I want to know how officially summoning the Israeli ambassador is going to affect the building these homes. If the Israeli government could get the IDF to carry out a Rwandan style genocide on the Palestinians they would, and you know what, nothing would be done about it either.
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| Quote ="Mintball"No. You've simply made it clear that you sympathise with neo-fascist bullies, and condemn their victims for daring to put up any form of resistance.
I can imagine you being appalled by the behaviour of the Resistance or the ANC too. Indeed, that was pretty much Margaret Thatcher's line.
Who'd a thunk it, eh? SmokeyTA – son of Thatcher.'"
Then you wont have a problem finding these pro-israeli posts then will you sweetie.
It seems you have made the ridiculous mistake of confusing being anti-hamas and anti-terrorism, with being pro-israeli
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| Quote ="Mintball"Well indeed. But Smokey tells us that if the Palestinians dare object, that'll be 'anti-semetic'.
Of course.
And Smokey himself isn't a raving Nazi.'"
They are free to object. Just not to try and murder people.
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| I really don't know why all you disgruntled left wing idealists are working yourselves up into a tizzy. Life may well be e for the Millwall equivalent of the Arab world, but their antics over the last couple of generations or so, have brought them to where they are now. As you sew etc etc.
If Israel decided that it would be best all round to re occupy that miserable little strip of sand, does anyone honestly think, that apart from outraged splutterings from the usual suspects, that the Great and the Good of the World would do anything meaningful at all?
Tibet anyone?
Way past time perhaps, for all you folk who appear to be overly outraged on behalf of someone else, to find a new cause to chelp about.
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| Quote ="Mintball"But they are white; and essentially European.'"
Sad but true, a white life is and has always been more precious.
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