Repair?

As someone said recently not everyone that voted leave voted for an unaccountable single party state exploiting people's worst prejudices to maintain power indefinitely.

But it's what we'll get.

Is there evidence that despite all the support of EU monies that any of these countries have improved sufficiently economically that they seen a reduction in the financial support they receive from the EU or is the period of recovery so long as to be idealogical rather than reality

Nobody has ever left the EU so all projections are thesis and the reality maybe different. I don't think anyone is saying it will better initially but as to the long term one thing is for sure it will not hit the economy like the financial crisis did. The BOE change their outcome forecast every quarter that's how certain they are of the outcome.

This isn't leaving the EU this is about democracy - are MPs there to implement the will of the people or simply to use their status as a platform to implement their own agenda. The idea that some Tory MPs will willing assist Corbyn into power shows how far the will of the people has become irrelevant. We could be in a position whereby Labour end up in power without even a vote - how does that work in a democracy. We have a speaker who also rides rough shot over everything to deliver his own agenda - its madness

Leaving the EU is another challenge - if the EU leaders had their way there wouldn't be MEPs there would simply be rules sent down from the ruling body which we all had to obey. That might be a price worth paying for seamless trade - as you said nothing is 100% certain

More hysterical, unsubstantiated xenophobic garbage. A poor man's Aaron Banks.

Who would have thought we would have an unelected Labour government - that is a distinct possibility.

On the EU listen to the likes of Verhofstadt - they see the input of members states as a negative and as soon as it is stopped the better. He is not alone.

You literally are just making stuff up.

Firstly, the newer members in the EU are definitely stronger economic nations within the EU.
You mention democracy and no doubt believe that our parliament should rule our country, which is a line trotted out by the Brexitiers and yet, you along with others are in support of Boris closing down Parliament to force through HIS version of Brexit - democracy eh ?

As for those at the top of The EU wanting rid of the MEP's to have a free reign








Which Tory rag have you been reading.

It's our own Prime Minister wanting to close the doors of Parliament and force his will upon the people.

What is absolutely clear is that we voted to leave without any knowledge of how to actually leave, especially in relation to Ireland and again, some of your "friends" on the Brexit side of the debate, would happily leave Ireland to it's sectarian extremes, rather than face reality.

We have yet another unelected PM in the UK; I am struggling to see your opposition to this. You name a Belgian politician; who strangely is not German or French - you remember those who you know run the EU? I could just as easily name other members of the EU parliament who have different views. You just dredge up unsubstantiated right-wing rag headlines to desperately try to avert attention from the disaster your sort are imposing on the country due to a warped ideology that dates back to the times when world maps were predominantly pink.

Boris whilst unelected he does lead a party that got the most MPs and the largest proportion of the popular vote they got 56 more seats and c800k more votes. So I have little issue with who leads the party in that scenario.

The idea that Corbyn could be the party in charge without even a vote is incredible - I know for lefties like you that should be the natural order of things i.e. you lefties know what's best for all of us - perhaps why you are so keen on the dictatorial EU.

Even Stevie Wonder can see over the last 40 years we have conceded more control over our laws to the EU - so when does this slide stop or does it continue until they decide all our laws? British steel could not be helped by the UK government due to abiding to laws made by the EU. Eire had low CT that is now being challenged by the EU where does this cease?

Come on, it's simple maths.
The Tories, with the largest number of MP's get the first shot at forming a government, which is all good and fair.
However, if they are voted down in a confidence vote then, there should either be an interim government, from a coalition of the other parties or, a general election.
It's got nothing to do with "lefties" or "righties", it's just maths.

Having said that, it was Mrs May that gambled with the Tory majority and was left being propped up by the DUP, therefore, this situation is all of the Tories own doing. Notwithstanding the fact that, their version of Brexit is just not acceptable within Parliament.
Again, worth noting that it was primarily the ERG that prevented Mrs Mays deal passing through Parliament - yet another example of strong and stable government.

The Tories dont deserve to be in charge but, the next government, without doubt will be a coalition, with Farage and the Tories on one side and Labour, the LibDems and SNP on the other and nobody will be over the moon with those options, other than perhaps the SNP and of course Mr Farage who isn't even an MP ??

If ever there was a reason for remaining in the EU, you have it right there.

The suggestion from an establishment fag that the left know what's best for all is hilarious. I've voted Labour once in the last 30 years in GE so your narrow-minded assumptions are garbage. Can you tell me how your life will be improved if we leave the EU - apart from a smug feeling of racial superiority?
Are you able to argue without quoting unsubstantiated right-wing rag-like headlines?

There should definitely be a general election - under no circumstances should Corbyn be allowed to form a government by the back door. Let him put his case to the country and take his chances - he lost last time by >50 seats and 800k votes.

What prevented May's deal going through was the terms of the deal - end of. Had she negotiated a reasonable deal it would have had more chance of success - nothing to do with the ERG.

Time will tell on the next GE and the government that is formed - if we leave the EU as discussed Farage will be dead in the water and that is as you say the best reason for leaving the EU. The idea that Lady Nicola would have any input into who forms the government when she like Farage isn't even an MP should give everyone cause for concern.

If Corbyn doesn't think he knows best why does he want to nationalise everything from banking to utilities to transport?

What will be improved - surely if don't have to inject Bn.'s into supporting less prosperous countries in the EU and we can re-direct that money into all the services everyone craves money for?

Setting our laws means those laws can be focused on the needs of this country rather the observing laws that are made for the benefit of other nations e.g. agriculture/fishing. Our farming is just about the most advanced in Europe yet it is held back by the inefficient farming in the rest of Europe.

Perhaps we might get back to consuming more of our own produce e.g. Lamb why we import so much from New Zealand yet export so much to EU seems mad to me - why not simply consume our own Lamb.

Farage would be dead in the water and we wont need MEPs

Would you like a few more?

Are you still assuming that our trade deals, when they are eventually agreed, will be as good (or better) than we have now ?
If not, the £9 billion will be like very small drops in the ocean.

As for consuming more of our own produce ?
The lamb that you mention may be a good example (along with Danish Bacon etc)
However, the UK is a massive net importer and the trade gap would be significantly larger if we didn't have a surplus in "invisible" trade, which , incidentally, comes under threat if/when we are no longer within the EU.

Once again, I dont think thet you have thought your argument through too well.

Although, I do agree with you about Corbyn ,who IMO is a closet Leaver and has so many splinters in his booty from straddling the Brexit fence that he may have trouble sitting down.

The guy is a shocking leader and wont become Prime Minister any time soon

May’s deal was a reasonable ‘hard option’, imo. Not what i’d have advocated, but reasonable nonetheless.

What do you think a reasonable deal would look like?

Until they (the politicians) can find a sensible way around the Irish Backstop, there cant/wont be a deal.
The pillocks, that drove the referendum campaign and told EVERYONE how simple it would be and how we would have preferable trade deals accross the world and free trade with the EU, had no idea how it would happen and they still dont.

No deal, throws Ireland into chaos and leaves so many unanswered questions that "we" would be stupid to allow it to happen.
In a cruel twist of irony, Corbyn, could be the politician that ensures no deal.

He's still sat on the fence, not knowing whether to publicly support Brexit or "swap sides" and push for remaining in the EU and he really needs to be doing whatever is necessary to prevent a no deal exit. Sadly, he will drift along until its too late.

Aye, but there isn’t a good Brexit-based solution to the Irish border problem to be found, that pleases all (or even any?) of the Brexit coalition. The only way to get rid of the backstop is to postpone the decision. At some point a choice has to made as to which [utwo[/u of the following we want.

1. Full regulatory autonomy for the UK
2. No border on the island of Ireland
3. No border within the UK

(I’m agreeing with the post i’ve quoted - despite the ‘but’ near the start of my post)

Protection of existing status for all brits now living in Europe, and for EU citizens now resident in the UK

An electronic mechanism so goods can move freely across the Irish border - no backstop.

The ability to strike autonomous deals outside of the EU and an agree trade deal with the EU

Make our own laws no recourse back to European court

A reasonable settlement figure 39bn seems huge.

The problem with May's deal is the EU hold all the cards and could hold the UK in a frozen Brexit indefinitely which is why it couldn't get through Parliament - a rotten deal from a PM completely out of her depth.

The first is perfectly reasonable, and was covered by articles 11 to 14, according to the summary I just googled.

The electronic mechanism solution to the Irish border problem doesn’t exist, has only been defined conceptually in broad terms, is at best an aspiration and at worst wishful thinking.

Contingent somewhat on the Irish border solution, May’s agreement allowed us to strike new trade deals outside the EU and with the EU.

May’s deal took us completely outside the jurisdiction of the European courts.

£39 billion is a lot of money, but none of what it covers seems unreasonable to me.

May was out of her depth but she picked up a poop hand. A huge part of the problem was that expectations were unrealistically high. That’s part of the political cycle of course, hopes are raised and then disappointed. And the way that has to be dealt with is by accepting reality and a degree of disappointment. Or by sticking fingers in ears and sulking our way to something even worse, apparently.

So your only issue with May's deal, which covered all the above, is the settlement figure?
A figure which you think "seems huge" but which we've already established you don't know the detail of or the rationale for?

So the cat is out of the bag.
Even our "no deal" government knows that we are heading for choppy waters with no deal and despite Gove's best efforts to say this was old news, THERI OWN forecast for a no deal Brexit shows that we will be in for some pain.

If the leave side had written the dossier, it would be labelled "project fear" but this was THEIR OWN projection.

At least nobody can now be in any doubt that leaving without a deal will hurt every man, woman and child in the UK and if this is what any of you voted for, I hope your happy now.

I really would like to know the motivation and who actually wins with this outcome.

It seems that The EU believe that we wont follow through (for obvious reasons) and they aren't ready to budge so, we will see just how determined Boris and Co are to crap on the people that they represent.

The economy is already on the verge of recession and this should ensure that spending plans are reversed as we face a few more uncertain years.
Dont think it will be as bad as the banking crisis but what are they doing.

You miss the "Hotel California" clause - conveniently

Again it is the "Hotel California" clause that is the issue as you well know - shame you failed to mention that in your summary.

Maybe the clowns that wanted a referendum should have thought a little more about how they would achieve it, BEFORE selling their version of utopia


The whole impasse is of our own making but, you can bet your life that Boris will be blaming "the inflexibility of the EU", despite still not having a sensible plan for the Irish border and given that he has had an additional 3 years since the referendum to come up with a sensible idea, it's quite ridiculous that he think the solution will suddenly appear, like some kind of apparition.
Remember the old phrase about not starting a fight if you cant finish it ???

If the technology isn’t that far off for the Irish border as some claim then accept the backstop in the WA. It won’t be needed.

Is that the technology that doesn't currently exist anywhere in the world?

What we're witnessing of course, is Johnson deliberately making vague and impossible demands of the EU, so he can play the inevitable failure of his plan as being entirely due to EU intransigence.

Absolutely.
It's just a matter of whether he uses this to blame the EU for the UK proceeding with no deal or, whether he uses the line in his resignation speech.
Sadly, I think it will be the first option.
It's a bloody shambles that he believed that the EU would blink, just because he wanted them to.
It's all starting to unravel.