[url=http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/11/23/roy/sctFniw6Wn2n9nTdxZ91RJ/story.html?s_campaign=8315What the apologists like to ignore/forget.[/url

Eloquently put. I was beginning to think there was something wrong with me being concerned about killings on both sides, rather than thinking killing innocents is OK so long as the end result was something I agreed with.

Read the link from the [iBoston Globe[/i I've just posted to see what the Israeli state has been doing ever since the last onslaught on [aa blockaded population[/a.

Because if you think it hasn't been doing anything, you're very, very wrong.



Well, looking at the numbers of those killed, there's one hell of a lot more Palestinian children have been killed. And then people try to play moral equivalence.

'Dirty weapons'? Like the phosphorus the Israelis have used on Gaza?

At least the sonic booms that caused miscarriages weren't 'dirty', eh?

This was not defence.

No. I don't. But I think it's massively stupid to actually take account of the situation that the Palestinians are in, in reality, and then wonder that some of them don't lash out and wring hands when they do.

What do you expect? Politicians have failed them; the West ignores them and stops even mild criticism at the UN being passed. So politics clearly isn't much of a route.

They're effectively in a prison – and being shot at, while inside that prison.

Read the [iBoston Glove[/i article – and then come back and explain what you think they should do against a state that is ideologically committed to ethnic cleansing.

Zionism is a far-right, nationalist ideology. Don't forget that a former member on these forums was not only a BNP supporter but a self-declared 'Christian-Zionist'. That should tell you a lot.

And as Desmond Tutu has said, what the Israeli state is enforcing is a form of apartheid. It wasn't acceptable in South Africa and it's no more acceptable in the Middle East.

Before the end of apartheid, were you condemning the ANC for its military campaign (and it was a damn sight more organised than what anyone in the Gaza is managing)?

Sometimes defending yourself means you need to go on the offensive, nature of conflict I'm afraid.

I agree that the numbers are much larger on the Palestinian side, but you seem to have no sympathy for dead Israeli civilians, judging by your posts it's all about Palaetinians. Maybe I am wrong, but a blood covered child or civilian adult is the same to me no matter what god they pray to.

Great. Glad to see you finally understanding what the Palestinians are going through.

Have you read that article yet?

I have never not understood what the Palestinians are going through, I just don't think we can ignore what they do to achieve their aims.

No I haven't read the article, but I will. I am just skipping in and out while doing paid work at the moment.

We'd have only been allowed to be outraged if they'd used mustard gas, Sarin and Tabun like Saddam did against the Kurds.

How do you know what they are going though? Have you lived there?

Have you?

FWIW, I do believe that the ultimate resolution has to be a two-state one. But nothing I've seen from the state of Israel over some decades suggests that they are meaningfully remotely interested in that. And now we have the US saying that it will withdraw any aid from the Palestinians (which is miniscule by comparison with how much it props up the state of Israel), if the Palestinians dare to go to the UN and ask to be called a state.

Lobbing rockets at random into Israel is, in my opinion, a crass and counterproductive tactic.

But then again, I'm not imprisoned on a tiny bit of land, blockaded in, being subjected to regular raids and attacks, and haven't had my home stolen from me and then been expected to grovel to those who stole it.

And it frankly flabbergasts me that people don't realise this reality. The UK helps to arm the state of Israel. David Miliband made a decision, while in government, to continue that. William Hague says it's all only the fault of one side.

And that's just a snapshot of UK reaction: what can the Palestinians do?

In the wake of WWII, very few Jewish refugees were allowed asylum in European nations west of Germany/the Iron Curtain – certainly in relation to the numbers of non-Jewish refugees. The main tactic was to create a Jewish state so that those Jewish refugees would go there (indeed, as promised by the 1916 Balfour Declaration).

So there is an argument that, in fact, deciding to inflict an imperialist 'solution' onto the Middle East was actually a subtle continuation of anti-semitism – and was certainly inherently racist. But okay, we're too far down the line to change that.

So okay, where do we go from here? That's the crucial question.

But we cannot ignore the history and we have to challenge the perception of Israeli 'defence', which leads many people to end up siding with Goliath against David.

^

Wot he said.

No.

For the second time, have you?

I know people who have. I know people who have visited. I know people who have worked there.

[url=http://www.scriptonitedaily.org/2012/11/time-to-call-spade-spade.htmlA very good piece from one of them.[/url

You just sound ridiculous making allowances and excuses for Palestinian murder.

Im not sure what you think about Hamas charter is Israeli propaganda.

What the flying f@ck are you talking about?

Nowhere near as "ridiculous" as someone supporting neo-fascists pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing.



Get with the times, boy. [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/1522553/Hamas-U-turn-on-Israels-right-to-exist.htmlHamas agreed that Israel had a right to exist in 2006[/url.



Thank you for illustrating so perfectly that you haven't a clue who it is you're acting as an apologist for.

You happily witter about how awful those nasty Palestinians are, without a clue about what has been done to the Palestinian people for 60-odd years – and as though they should simply run away like the "dogs" that Ben Guerion described them as.

Racist apologist.

You do realise that Hamas do not represent all Palestinians, only those in Gaza? The principle party in the West Bank is Fatah. To imply that "Palestinian Murder" and Hamas activities are one in the same is disingenuous. Hamas Murder would be a more accurate interpretation.

WHen Minty talks about "The Zionist terrorists never poisoned wells, shot people in the back of the head, drove people from their homes etc etc." she is talking about the following types of activities:

[urlhttp://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/poisoning-the-village-wells-1.137154[/url

[urlhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/23/palestinian-shot-by-israeli-forces-gaza[/url

[urlhttp://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F3C5978B53AAD6C8852579E4004FECA7[/url

Here to help

Nice one, Soldiers in Blue.



I find it quite extraordinary that so many people don't seem to know that the very foundation of the state of Israel was based on what we would readily call 'terrorist' activities. And those terrorists were seriously calculating in their biological warfare, for instance – they were not simply lobbing rockets in anger.

Some years ago, I was chatting with a guy who'd worked on Fleet Street for years. He remembered how, one day, one of his colleagues burst into the office, almost hysterical, sweating etc, and screaming that he'd just seen a terrorist walking down the street.

When they calmed the bloke down and got to the bottom of it, this was a man who'd served in Palestine, as it was, (he'd been an officer, incidentally) and the man he'd seen, in London, was Moshe Dayan.

Just to reiterate: I personally believe that a two-state solution is the only way forward, ultimately. But the one-sided nature of the condemnation, and the lack of any comprehension of what the Palestinians are faced with, on a daily basis, gets right on my tits. And they're not small tits.

A distinction I've been very careful to draw throughout this thread.

Similarly the Israeli government does not represent all Israeli citizens.

If you say so, some may beg to differ.



Well actually it does doesn't it as the Israelis have elected their Government and many Israelis support their government's actions.

Okay - just to be clear...

At no point have I defended the actions of Israel. Quite the opposite. At no point have I condemned the [iPalestinians[/i for anything. My sole point has been that if we - quite correctly - condemn the Israeli government for targeting civilian populations then we cannot simply ignore or condone Hamas using the exact same tactics.

Apparently this somehow equates to support of Israel. I'm damned if I understand why, but there you go.

As for your question about apartheid South Africa, I'm afraid to say that at that time I was almost militantly ignorant of the facts. My recollection of my attitude at the time is of an incredibly shallow 'apartheid bad, Nelson Mandela good' naivety. Not something I'm proud of but I'm not about to pretend otherwise.

Feel free to provide supporting quotes. I haven't double-checked everything I've typed but I'm pretty sure I've used the word Hamas rather than Palestinians. I certainly did when making my initial point.

What's more likely is that some on here, possibly you included, see anything other than total agreement with their own view as automatically being the exact opposite view and therefore read stuff into posts that simply isn't there.


And Hamas is the duly elected government of Gaza, with the support of many Palestinians. How does this differ?

I know exactly what you mean apart from the boobs bit.

It is also pleasing to see that by page 20 of this thread some people appear to be seeing things slightly differently. That is not say that they were wrong in the first place just imho not even handed on the issue.

Both on [iThe Andrew Marr Show[/i this morning.
I can already hear the line the pair of them are going to trot out.

I agree, if someone were doing that, they would look ridiculous. As i havent seen anyone yet do that here, its just you looking ridiculous making excuses for murder.

You would think they would change their charter then wouldnt you. Maybe pull back on that blatantly anti-semitic language included within it, stop talking about the glory of killing Israelis. That statement would look a lot more realistic if Hamas foreign minister wasnt saying [i "I dreams of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it," he said. "I hope that our dream to have our independent state on all historic Palestine (including Israel)."

"This dream will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the state of Israel on this land," said al-Zahar.[/i at the same time, and they werent holding an Israeli soldier hostage whilst saying it. But thats ok because its brave little palestine doing it, not of course, Big Bad Israel
Im not apoligising for anyone. This is why i dont know what you are talking about, you seem to be reading different words to the ones im writing.