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| Quote ="El Barbudo"
The argument about whether the government licensed the implants is totally irrelevant and is merely a smokescreen.'"
But they did, they turned out to be faulty. The products those private clinics use still have to be tested and licensed by the state. In other words they had the Department of Health stamp of approval, so to speak. As such the blame must shift away from the clinics, who've purchased a product in the safe reassurance that it's passed strict safety tests and is approved for medical use, to those who carried out (or didn't) the appropriate tests and checks.
Interestingly in the factory (where the implants were made) in the south of France, employees have testified that they would come in to work one day, and find the supplies and the set-up changed. The industrial grade silicone had been replaced by one of a medical quality. Once the inspectors had left, the process was reversed. Also, the implants that were used for selling purposes - ie sent to those who wanted samples - were always of the highest quality.
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| Quote ="peggy"But they did, they turned out to be faulty. The products those private clinics use still have to be tested and licensed by the state. In other words they had the Department of Health stamp of approval, so to speak. As such the blame must shift away from the clinics, who've purchased a product in the safe reassurance that it's passed strict safety tests and is approved for medical use, to those who carried out (or didn't) the appropriate tests and checks.'"
My point still stands though. I wouldn't want to be treated by a doctor who was using a product deemed OK by a penpusher. Yes the government checks appear to be flawed, but if companies are not doing their own checks of products they use, they are at fault. This isn't a faulty biro someone has bought, it's an invasive medical procedure that the companies are charging a lot of money for.
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| Quote ="peggy"But they did, they turned out to be faulty. The products those private clinics use still have to be tested and licensed by the state. In other words they had the Department of Health stamp of approval, so to speak. As such the blame must shift away from the clinics, who've purchased a product in the safe reassurance that it's passed strict safety tests and is approved for medical use, to those who carried out (or didn't) the appropriate tests and checks.
Interestingly in the factory (where the implants were made) in the south of France, employees have testified that they would come in to work one day, and find the supplies and the set-up changed. The industrial grade silicone had been replaced by one of a medical quality. Once the inspectors had left, the process was reversed. Also, the implants that were used for selling purposes - ie sent to those who wanted samples - were always of the highest quality.'"
Government licensing isn't the same as a goverment guarantee of quality.
When the manufacturer is swapping the spec all the time, how can it be?
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| Boob jobs should be free on the nhs anyway. Provided the recipient is good looking enough for them to beneficial to society.
As for removal of dodgy ones, I think first call should be the surgeon that put them in and if any are no longer in business the nhs should help out.
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| Quote ="Mintball"Actually, now is the time for the companies that made money out of them to behave responsibly. People didn't have implants in the expectation that there would turn out to be a health risk because the manufacturer used an inferior material.
Let's put it another way: if you bought a new car, in the full belief that it was safe, good, etc etc, and then it was revealed that it wasn't safe, because the manufacturer had used inferior materials on the brakes, would you expect to foot the bill for a replacement car?
Agreed.'"
The car point is interesting - I bought a new rover 2 weeks before they went bust, so all the warranty became invalid not unlike these poor ladies who have a potential time bomb in their chest. It is not just the manufacturer who has gone bust but also the clinic who performend the surgery.
I would have thought all concerns would have insurance to cover this stuff, the problem will be getting insurance to coff up and the opportunity cost of having personnel and facilities tied up doing this remedial work.
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| Quote ="McLaren_Field"I understand the argument and of course in your example the manufacturer would issue a recall and correct the error, but if the manufacturer had gone into liquidation then I'd assume that the owners would have to pay for the repair themselves (don't know for sure because I don't think its ever happened to a car manufacturer)...'"
I want to be quite clear – I think that the private companies are using excuses to save themselves accepting financial responsibility for their role in the situation. I don't think they should be allowed to do that.
However, as I have also tried to make clear, removal is not just a matter of cosmetic choice, but may well be of medical need.
Such payments do happen in a number of situations, though – such as the compensation to victims of crime that is paid by the state.
Quote ="McLaren_Field"The delicate issue here is that there are two extreme cases for breast implants, reconstruction after surgery (often cancer related) and pure vanity ...'"
So into which category does what Cod'ead described Emma as undergoing fall?
Quote ="McLaren_Field"... I don't think there are many who would argue that the NHS shouldn't be removing vanity implants unless there is an urgent medical case and health is at risk, it really is up to the providers to correct their error in the same way that when a TV set goes wrong you take it back to Comet and not Panasonic.'"
Health would appear to be at risk.
I would add, since we seem to have a large number of male posters here condemning women for "vanity": are you all saying that there are absolutely no pressures on women to conform to certain physical types and that it's a totall level playing field (if you will) as to social and cultural pressure on women?
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| Normally you would expect the clients/patients to go to the nhs or private medical group that "fitted" the implants and demand corrective surgery. The nhs/private medical group would then seek compensation from the suppliers of the implants. However the suppliers, PIP, appear to have gone broke. The question then is why aren't the private medical groups adequately insured for that eventuality?
The chairman of the Harley Medical Group was pushing the "its the governments fault, they licensed the implants" argument yesterday and insisting they didnt have the resources to carry out 13,000 corrective operations. But if they cant get the government to accept that argument and they dont undertake the corrective operations, why would anyone ever use their services again? Surely they'll go broke if they dont make sure that their clients/patients are properly looked after? Or is just that cosmetic surgery is one of those businesses that are easy to close down and then start up again iunder a different name?
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| Quote ="Rock God X"I think the argument of the private companies is that the government licensed the implants for use, so they had every right to assume they were safe. If they're not, the government should sort it.
I can see their point to some extent, but I also think that the fact that they acted in good faith shouldn't necessarily free them of any obligation to the patient.'"
Good faith? I would presume that private providers used that supplier, and continued to use it, because they were cut-price. I have no idea as to how much of a saving each made per implant, but wonder whether the saving was passed on to the customer. Big providers were Transform, and Harley medical group. HMG (for example) say that PIP implants were "not the cheapest on the market" but do not explain why they chose them. Were the implants charged out to the customer at cost price? Or did clinics make extra profits?
More to the point, did any clinic say to their customers "[iAlthough we will be fitting you with PIP implants, please note that as these are approved by the MHRA, we accept NO responsibility whatsoever for them. We are charging you £X for them, true, and we ARE making an extra £Y profit be reselling them to you, true, but if they turn out to be actually substandard hazardous crap, you'll have to sue the government, as we don't see why we should bear any responsibility whatsoever for the implants that we have chosen to use and have advised you to let us insert into your body as perfectly safe. We get them from this guy in France, who sells them much cheaper than average, but we don't need to ask any questions, as he's got his licence so that will do for us.[/i."
I don't believe they did.
In fact, I have no reason to disbelieve [url=http://forum.sofeminine.co.uk/forum/f52/__f21607_f52-Pip-implants-yes-they-rupture-and-in-the-first-few-years.html THIS LADY[/url, who in October 2009 posted on a forum what appears to me to be dynamite. One thing which immediately stands out is that, far from any disclaimers, her PIP implants "came with a 10 year guarantee".
So that's all right, then.
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| Quote ="Mintball"
I would add, since we seem to have a large number of male posters here condemning women for "vanity": are you all saying that there are absolutely no pressures on women to conform to certain physical types and that it's a totall level playing field (if you will) as to social and cultural pressure on women?'"
I'd say that men are under similar pressures these days as well.
I think there is a distinction to be made, though, between a woman who has had augmentation surgery because the size of her breasts was causing her psychological trauma, and a woman who 'just wanted to be bigger'. That's not to say that they shouldn't both be entitled to the same recourse when it goes wrong, however.
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| Quote ="Rock God X"I'd say that men are under similar pressures these days as well...'"
I think the pressure on men and boys is increasing massively these days – not least as companies see a big, and relatively untapped, market.
Quote ="Rock God X"I think there is a distinction to be made, though, between a woman who has had augmentation surgery because the size of her breasts was causing her psychological trauma, and a woman who 'just wanted to be bigger'. That's not to say that they shouldn't both be entitled to the same recourse when it goes wrong, however.'"
No disagreement with this.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark""[iAlthough we will be fitting you with PIP implants, please note that as these are approved by the MHRA, we accept NO responsibility whatsoever for them. We are charging you £X for them, true, and we ARE making an extra £Y profit be reselling them to you, true, but if they turn out to be actually substandard hazardous crap, you'll have to sue the government, as we don't see why we should bear any responsibility whatsoever for the implants that we have chosen to use and have advised you to let us insert into your body as perfectly safe. We get them from this guy in France, who sells them much cheaper than average, but we don't need to ask any questions, as he's got his licence so that will do for us.[/i." '"
If only all contracts were written in such a way.
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| Quote ="Cibaman"Normally you would expect the clients/patients to go to the nhs or private medical group that "fitted" the implants and demand corrective surgery. The nhs/private medical group would then seek compensation from the suppliers of the implants. However the suppliers, PIP, appear to have gone broke. The question then is why aren't the private medical groups adequately insured for that eventuality?
The chairman of the Harley Medical Group was pushing the "its the governments fault, they licensed the implants" argument yesterday and insisting they didnt have the resources to carry out 13,000 corrective operations. But if they cant get the government to accept that argument and they dont undertake the corrective operations, why would anyone ever use their services again? Surely they'll go broke if they dont make sure that their clients/patients are properly looked after? Or is just that cosmetic surgery is one of those businesses that are easy to close down and then start up again iunder a different name?'"
It's a watershed moment for the cosmetic surgery industry. They need to sort this and quickly, those who don't will be (rightly) screwed.
Providers who are saying they will charge are bandying about figures of around £3K per op. IF that is supposed to be 'cost price' (and I have no idea if it is) then that means the cost of 13,000 is approx. £40m. That would make a hole in anyone's accounts. What i would say though is that they presumably did NOT charge these 'low' prices to insert the implants in the first place, and so have already collected substantially more than that from the patients.
There are troubling aspects which are easy to find on the web. There seems to have been much noise about PIP implants for a long time, and the US never authorised them at all. Was there an element of ignoring the warning flags and just ploughing on blindly, hiding behind the 'approval' shield? Looks like it to me.
As for who pays - well,
(a) obviously every clinic should be insured, so cost to them should not even come into it. I suspect the difference is between volunteering to do a replacement directly; and a customer going via lawyers with a formal claim. The latter would be passed straight on to the clinic's insurers, whereas the former would be the clinic choosing to pay out of its own pocket. Thank heaven for claimant lawyers and (while they last) no win no fee agreements. These will empower the women concerned to get justice.
(b) the manufacturer may have gone bust, but surely it must have been someone's job to check whether such a supplier was properly insured, and that, year on year, this insurance remained adequate and in force? Or did the clinics never bother checking whether major suppliers carried insurance cover? If so, they are fools and richly deserve to be sued and made to pay.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"
So that's all right, then.'"
I don't know if you're implying that I did or not, but I'm not saying any of it is 'all right'. And I have stated quite clearly that I think the private clinics should pay for any corrective surgery.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark" Thank heaven for claimant lawyers and (while they last) no win no fee agreements. These will empower the women concerned to get justice.
'"
But aren't these things just a depressing indictment of our 'compensation culture'?
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| Quote ="Rock God X"I don't know if you're implying that I did or not, '"
? No, I wasn't!
Quote ="Rock God X"But aren't these things just a depressing indictment of our 'compensation culture'?
'"
I can guarantee that the insurance companies will argue precisely that. Of course, the numbskulls currently comprising what is laughingly called the "government" are currently hell-bent on destroying people's current ability to take on such organisations with equality of arms, under no win no fee, and are about to enact laws which will mean that the innocent victims will still have to pay a slice of their own legal fees. Nobody is interested in this, they won't complain until it happens to them, and then it will be far too late.
In a year or so, a woman suing a breast implant company, up against the might of their insurance company and fancy lawyers will, if she wins, have to pay part of the legal costs (the lawyer's Success Fee) and will also have to pay her legal expenses insurance premium, which could all amount to thousands of pounds. That is justice, Lib-Con style. Even when they fook up, shove some money into the pockets of big business wrongdoers, at the expense of innocent victims.
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| There's also the issue of setting a precedent for future 'vanity' cosmetic issues. If the NHS decides to open its doors and foot the bill for every dodgy breast implant, they're also in effect saying they'll put right every private issue of faulty cosmetic surgery - on whatever scale.
Who knows what the long-term damage will be for those stupid people who enjoy looking like ducks and have collagen injections in their faces every few weeks - will this be the result in 10 years?:
Should the NHS perform corrective surgery?
The explosion in cosmetic surgery has - for the most part - been a recent phenomenon. Chopping, changing, removing bits and inserting various foreign objects and chemicals into our bodies is not a great idea and we've actually got no idea what the long-term damage and effects will be.
As others have said, if I seek out a private firm and pay for something that subsequently turns out to be faulty, I don't generally expect the government to sort my problems out. I generally expect the firm concerned to sort me out, or if that's not happening for whatever reason, I take responsibility and if I feel I've a strong enough case, seek recompense in the courts.
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| Quote ="Mintball"
I would add, since we seem to have a large number of male posters here condemning women for "vanity": are you all saying that there are absolutely no pressures on women to conform to certain physical types and that it's a totall level playing field (if you will) as to social and cultural pressure on women?'"
Not at all, as the father of 23 and 19 year old daughters I know full well of the pressures on them to comply and to look a certain way and as I point out to them every time they are off on another shopping trip to a shopping mall somewhere - come back and tell me how many clothes shops they find that cater exclusively for men and how many for women, and then come back and tell me that they aren't brainwashed by advertising to believe that they have to do this.
Likewise the perfume, make-up and accessory shops that they inhabit, are there equivalent for men ?
Yes you are absolutely correct, women, and some very young women, are often pressurised into thinking that their breasts are "wrong" and need correction in order to comply with a "standard" - there was one on TV yesterday morning, a young girl singer with a girl band (forget the name, didn't even recognise the name), who had breast implants after she breastfed her child and thought that they "looked wrong" afterwards, its vanity, but yes, its enforced vanity.
I just wonder if private clinics started pushing testicle implants and the idea that large testicles would make men more attractive to women, would men re-mortgage their houses to get them or just stuff a sock down their pants ?
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| Quote ="Cronus"As others have said, if I seek out a private firm and pay for something that subsequently turns out to be faulty, I don't generally expect the government to sort my problems out. I generally expect the firm concerned to sort me out, or if that's not happening for whatever reason, I take responsibility and if I feel I've a strong enough case, seek recompense in the courts.'"
however, this is not a routine situation - ultimately, the women with these implants have a higher risk of breast cancer, and the NHS will be liable to treat that. It will probably be worth taking the risk of paying now to avoid a bigger cost in a few years.
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| Quote ="EHW"however, this is not a routine situation - ultimately, the women with these implants have a higher risk of breast cancer, and the NHS will be liable to treat that. It will probably be worth taking the risk of paying now to avoid a bigger cost in a few years.'"
While not the appropriate grade of silicone, I thought neither UK nor Australian medical authorities considered it to be toxic or carcinogenic to surrounding tissue in case of a leak? Didn't the whole cancer scare come out of one woman in France who contracted breast cancer and had a leaky implant?
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| Quote ="McLaren_Field"... Likewise the perfume, make-up and accessory shops that they inhabit, are there equivalent for men ?'"
Increasingly, yes.
Quote ="McLaren_Field"Yes you are absolutely correct, women, and some very young women, are often pressurised into thinking that their breasts are "wrong" and need correction in order to comply with a "standard" - there was one on TV yesterday morning, a young girl singer with a girl band (forget the name, didn't even recognise the name), who had breast implants after she breastfed her child and thought that they "looked wrong" afterwards, its vanity, but yes, its enforced vanity...'"
I can't remember with certainty which group came up with the research (it was something like the NSPCC), but it was reported a couple of years ago that girls as young as six were being (negatively) critical about their bodies and girls as young as nine were dieting. It's frankly Jesuitical – get 'em young and keep 'em for life – as far as the entire beauty, fashion and diet industries are concerned. And yes, the male market has been being targeted for some time now too.
Quote ="McLaren_Field"I just wonder if private clinics started pushing testicle implants and the idea that large testicles would make men more attractive to women, would men re-mortgage their houses to get them or just stuff a sock down their pants ?'"
But then we get into the relative positions of men and women within society, and the relative treatments of both by employers, the media etc on the basis of looks. And, as we've discussed more than once here, that's not a level playing field.
Taking your point, though, there are plenty of adverts around offering ways to increase penis size – I presume some men must be buying into these. So the insecurity is there too.
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| Quote ="Andy Gilder"While not the appropriate grade of silicone, I thought neither UK nor Australian medical authorities considered it to be toxic or carcinogenic to surrounding tissue in case of a leak? Didn't the whole cancer scare come out of one woman in France who contracted breast cancer and had a leaky implant?'"
That was my impression too.
I also think that the media have been somewhat instrumental in whipping up hysteria. When I asked Emma whethere she had PIP implants, she replied that she had no idea but thought that as she had a cheap boob job done in Belgium, it was a fair bet that they were PIP. When I asked if she was concerned, her response was "not in the slightest". Now given that she is almost paranoid when it comes to health & hygene issues, I did think this somewhat unusual.
In any other situation, a basic risk assessment would probably conclude that there's nothing to get excited about.
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| Quote ="cod'ead"That was my impression too ...'"
Ditto.
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| I'm no expert but have done a little digging. It seems likely that these implants have a failure rate - ie they leak - of maybe 7%.
If I had some, that is not good odds. At all.
One Guy Sterne is a Consultant Cosmetic Surgeon and he says:
Quote My personal opinion is that these implants should be removed. The reasons for this are: they are substandard; they have a high risk of rupture (the consequences of which can be significant); and they contain non-medical grade silicone which, although is probably inert is not specifically manufactured for use in the human body and so should be removed.'"
He also is one of several indicators that many cosmetic surgeons knew of the issues being steadily raised about PIP implants - as long as 5 years ago - and it seems the prudent avoided them
Quote ... the gel filler was changed from medical grade silicone to cheaper, industrial grade silicone containing Baysilone (a fuel additive), Silopren and Rhodorsil (both used in the production of rubber tubing).
Thus, these implants rupture far more frequently than other silicone implants, and the leaking gel appears to be more irritant than the extremely inert medical-grade silicone.
As long as 5 years ago, reports started to appear in the Plastic Surgical Journals that these PIP implants had an increased risk of rupture and most plastic surgeons avoided them.'"
Anyone who wants to minimise or dismiss the potential health risks and problems of a ruptured implant should have a look at this surgeon's site, [url=http://www.consultantplasticsurgeon.co.uk/pip-implants-information {WARNING- SOME GRAPHIC IMAGES}[/url and then try to minimise it.
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| If you paid privately for them for reasons of a cosmetic nature then the only way the taxpayer should be involved is in an emergency removal if the go pop. If its just a case of replacing them with another type because of worry, then do what you did before, pay for it yourself
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Feb 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
May 2024 | Oct 2019 | LINK |
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TO BE FIXED |
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| Quote ="rover49"...If its just a case of replacing them with another type because of worry, then do what you did before, pay for it yourself'"
Not because of "worry", but because of the statistic that out of 40,000 implants, 7% - that is, 2,800 - WILL leak. That would be not too far off one woman in every 14, facing consequences which a consultant surgeon calls "significant".
Let's say you had a model of car, and had had the standard brakes upgraded to a bigger and better set, which were guaranteed for 10 years. Then you found out that due to substandard parts (but which were imported under a 'government approved' scheme) approx.7% of them would suffer a total brake failure at some point. Would you have the same attitude to that?
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