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| Quote ="Mugwump"I didn't - Goldstone (a widely respected WC jurist and, interestingly, - a Jew) & AA did.'"
Are they there with you? Cos im pretty sure you typed that, and you didnt quopte this [iJune 2008 - An Israel Hamas ceasefire brokered by Egypt. Each side had obligations. Palestinians - cease rocket and mortar attacks. Israel - gradually lift the blockade (a flagrant violation of international law) [/isooooooooo
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Are they there with you? Cos im pretty sure you typed that, and you didnt quopte this [iJune 2008 - An Israel Hamas ceasefire brokered by Egypt. Each side had obligations. Palestinians - cease rocket and mortar attacks. Israel - gradually lift the blockade (a flagrant violation of international law) [/isooooooooo'"
You do understand that rocket attacks are against individuals (even though Israel admitted Hamas cracked down on militant groups) whilst a blockade hurts every single Palestinian in Gaza? You are aware of the current "living" conditions in Gaza because of that blockade?
And you think that's a commensurate response? I'd expect someone from the Waffen SS to argue this point in relation to the Warsaw Ghetto, BTW.
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International Board Member | 29216 | No Team Selected |
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| At the end of the day Hamas are a terrorist organisation and so their democratic right to power is somewhat limited. They really shouldn't be allowed in the vote, given their actions.
Israel by plenty.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"You do understand that rocket attacks are against individuals (even though Israel admitted Hamas cracked down on militant groups) whilst a blockade hurts every single Palestinian in Gaza? You are aware of the current "living" conditions in Gaza because of that blockade?
And you think that's a commensurate response? I'd expect someone from the Waffen SS to argue this point in relation to the Warsaw Ghetto, BTW.'"
Really? Which individuals are they aimed against? Do we have a list of names? If so they really should be released before hand so everyone else can go about their day without worrying they might be killed or maimed by, what up until today, was thought to be indiscriminate rocket and mortar fire.
The Palestinian rocket and mortar fire aimed at civilians, is also a flagrant breach of international law, you can't condemn Israel for breaching international law, but sympathise with the Palestinians for doing so.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"You do understand that rocket attacks are against individuals'"
Really? I know 'smart weapons' have come a long way but I had no idea that they were that sophisticated. What target discrimination system do they use? How is the blast radius constrained?
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| Do I really need to explain the difference between mostly home-made rockets which are capable of killing individuals (1 to 5 or maybe 10) and cutting many of the most essential supplies to EVERYONE in the Gaza Strip?
I see that I do.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"Do I really need to explain the difference between mostly home-made rockets which are capable of killing individuals (1 to 5 or maybe 10) and cutting many of the most essential supplies to EVERYONE in the Gaza Strip?
I see that I do.'"
Let me guess, you want to pretend that the Gaza blockade is a form of collective punishment whilst the indisciminate launch of rockets (the fact the Palestinians dont have very good ones is pretty irrelevant, an incompetant murderer isnt morally better or worse than a competant one) and mortar rounds (circa a hundred today apparently) isnt.
So what is this supposed to teach us? THat It is morally more acceptable for Israel to bomb palestine back to the stone-age, launching hundreds of rockets a day and killing indiscriminately than it is for the to continue their blockade?
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| What about that wall the Israelis built a few years ago ? That's illegal but they won't budge on it.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Let me guess, you want to pretend that the Gaza blockade is a form of collective punishment'"
It IS a form of collective punishment.
Quote whilst the indisciminate launch of rockets (the fact the Palestinians dont have very good ones is pretty irrelevant, an incompetant murderer isnt morally better or worse than a competant one) and mortar rounds (circa a hundred today apparently) isnt. '"
Israel has no intention of negotiating and will not cease until it controls all of the Gaza strip and West Bank. How much of the West Bank has it stolen already?
The Palestinians have a choice - die or fight. They're fighting.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"Do I really need to explain the difference between mostly home-made rockets which are capable of killing individuals (1 to 5 or maybe 10) and cutting many of the most essential supplies to EVERYONE in the Gaza Strip?
I see that I do.'"
I think you just consigned yourself to your own drawer.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"Israel has no intention of negotiating'"
And you think that Hamas does?
If some miracle were to occur and Israel suddenly and completely complied with all it's obligations under international law, do you really believe that the rocket attacks would stop?
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| You really need to be able to perform superhuman feats of twisted logic to think 1 civilian death is equally as bad as 400.
I salute you.
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| [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kPe5zcTjH4"There was NO WAR in GAZA, it was a MASSACRE"[/url
I'd call it closer to extermination.
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| When someone has the clear intention of 'wiping you off the face of the earth' and then keeps lobbing rockets into your back garden, what the hell are you supposed to do. I don't blame Isreal for responding and its pointless doing so unless you are going to show them you mean business. Hamas are a blood thirsty bunch of terrorists and the people who voted for them have to also shoulder the blame as they new what they would do, after all it was the equivalent to a manifesto pledge.
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| Quote ="Kosh"And you think that Hamas does?
If some miracle were to occur and Israel suddenly and completely complied with all it's obligations under international law, do you really believe that the rocket attacks would stop?'"
You clearly have no knowledge of what Hamas is prepared to offer (such as recognition of the state of Israel, peace along the lines of the UN proposal which has been on the table for decades).
Ask yourself the question, if Hamas is the problem - why was no peace negotiated in the three years BEFORE Hamas assumed power?
There is a consistent line of Israeli action here - whoever is in power, choose only to recognise the party which is OUT of power. It's called "Divide and Conquer" and it's been a useful political tool since Julius Caesar perfected it.
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| Quote ="rover49"When someone has the clear intention of 'wiping you off the face of the earth''"
You do understand the difference between wiping the STATE of Israel off the face of the earth (in favour of a TWO-STATE solution) and wiping every ISRAELI off the face of the earth?
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| Quote ="Mugwump"You clearly have no knowledge of what Hamas is prepared to offer (such as recognition of the state of Israel, peace along the lines of the UN proposal which has been on the table for decades).'"
Your naivety is charming, although somewhat surprising given how often you accuse others of it.
Quote ="Mugwump"Ask yourself the question, if Hamas is the problem - why was no peace negotiated in the three years BEFORE Hamas assumed power?'"
I didn't say that Hamas were the problem. That's just your usual knee-jerk response of assuming that anyone who doesn't agree 100% with your POV must automatically have the diametrically opposite POV. Hamas is certainly [ipart[/i of the problem, as is Israel. Two sets of murderous thugs cheerfully attempting to exterminate each other. Lovely.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"It IS a form of collective punishment.
Israel has no intention of negotiating and will not cease until it controls all of the Gaza strip and West Bank. How much of the West Bank has it stolen already?
The Palestinians have a choice - die or fight. They're fighting.'"
Israel could easily have control of those areas. But they don’t.
The Palestinians also have a multitude of choices, not just the false dichotomy you have proposed.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"You do understand the difference between wiping the STATE of Israel off the face of the earth (in favour of a TWO-STATE solution) and wiping every ISRAELI off the face of the earth?'"
And the scary thing is that you probably actually believe that.
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| Quote ="Kosh"icon_lol.gif
And the scary thing is that you probably actually believe that.'"
I'm wondering why you choose NOT to believe it whilst - I assume - you believe Israel is committed to peace.
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| Quote ="Kosh"Your naivety is charming, although somewhat surprising given how often you accuse others of it.
I didn't say that Hamas were the problem. That's just your usual knee-jerk response of assuming that anyone who doesn't agree 100% with your POV must automatically have the diametrically opposite POV. Hamas is certainly [ipart[/i of the problem, as is Israel. Two sets of murderous thugs cheerfully attempting to exterminate each other. Lovely.'"
I'm at a complete loss to explain how you EQUATE the suffering of both. Do you know the comparative death tolls since the Palestinians were kicked off their land by a colonial power?
Please explain how you do it. Seriously, I'm interested.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"I'm wondering why you choose NOT to believe it whilst - I assume - you believe Israel is committed to peace.'"
And there you go again with the assumptions. You could try actually reading what people post instead. For instance the bit where I describe both sides as murderous and bent on each other's annihilation?
Sweeping the state of Israel from the face of the planet very clearly does not refer to negotiation of a two-state solution. Anyone who honestly thinks that it does is wearing the rosiest of rose-tinted glasses.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Israel could easily have control of those areas. But they don’t. '"
Yes, they could. But, oddly enough, Israel is conscious of world opinion and the damage it could suffer if it were to exterminate the entire Palestinian population. Which is why they are very careful over when to launch their attacks (such as immediately after the US elections).
Quote The Palestinians also have a multitude of choices, not just the false dichotomy you have proposed.'"
Explain.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"Yes, they could. But, oddly enough, Israel is conscious of world opinion and the damage it could suffer if it were to exterminate the entire Palestinian population. Which is why they are very careful over when to launch their attacks (such as immediately after the US elections). '" Because just after the US elections means obama would be less critical? Surely the time to do it would have been a week or two beforehand?
Quote Explain.'" fight or die arent the only options, just as they arent for israel
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