There's usually sobering news on the run-up to Christmas, but the standard of 'driving' on a bit of ice and snow this morning is just an indication that the body count inexorably will rise over the holidays.

The flavour of the month is claims of fake accidents and bogus injuries. Well, you can't fake a death, and the annual death tolls released this year do a graphic job, as [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15975720illustrated chillingly by graphics available on the BBC news [/urlsite.

There is a map identifying the location of every one of the deaths of 36,371 people who were killed on Britain's roads between 1999 and 2010, and you can search your own postcode and see the locations plotted.

Maybe the scariest thing is the time lapse video of all the accidents, and I reckon it should be compulsory viewing for every driver. But perhaps some sort of effort and resources should finally be aimed at actual training and actually improving driving standards. We get plenty of grim warning adverts and exhortations to be careful, but what good do they do? 36,371 deaths in 10 years. Anything else, and huge resources would be brought to bear. While UK road safety may be better than most places, that's beside the point.The carnage continues, and I reckon that one of the daily Commissions of Inquiry of which the Government is so fond should be set up to look at the issue from all sides. MPs fiddling theirn expenses is worthy of an inquiry and jailing the worst offenders, but surely pales into insignificance compared with thousands dying on our roads non-stop, year in, year out?

I work with traffic, so i notice more than others the delays caused, the frequency of accidents and the types of accidents, usually it's November when we tend to have the most but due to the mild weather i think it may be december this time round, the main problem is drivers not adapting the way they drive from the last few summer/dry months, driving education/standards are terrible and the driving test doesn't do enough for me. I think motorway driving should be a separate compulsory test, plus the original test should be 2 hours plus an interview with the examiner on common sense road issues. I'm trained to a high standard of driving so it frustrates me that people haven't got a clue how dangerous their actions are at times.

I am a driving instructor.
Would you please explain. What you think is wrong with driving education please.

I'm going off what i see in London, i saw an instructor tell is pupil not to let a car in that was trying to squeeze in a lane in crawling traffic he made this girl (i know i was next to it in the 3rd lane) drive right up the backside of the car in front so he couldn't get in, shocking.
My main gripe is when i took my PCV i couldn 't believe what i was learning that i hadn't been taught at entry level car learning, i then took my bus instructors corse and was further enlightened. Yourself being an instructor must realise that drivers need more tuition and more education than they currently get, how many pupils have you had start their first lesson in spring and pass before winter thus never experiencing winter weather in a learning situation? I think skid pan driving should also be a given.
Although i gave one example of bad driving instructing and i've seen a few more, it wasn't you guys i was actually targeting, more the directives you're given. The people who set the standards and directives need to change for you to follow them. With more people learning to drive and being on the roads it's important the standard should rise.

I think Yed is right in that driving different conditions should be tested or at least taught by the instructor. My birthday is in May and so I started my driving lessons in may and was passed by the end of October and so obviously had no experience of driving in snow or ice until after I'd passed my test. Also, as I live in York that is very flat I had no experience of driving up or down steep hills or hill-starts.

Being taught what to do when the car starts to skid in snow or on ice would have been very useful and just general driving tips in such conditions.

There isn't that much that a driving test/lessons can do about the arrogant pillocks that drive far too fast/cut people up/overtake where they shouldn't etc as that's generally an attitude that is inherent to that person. But I think the driving lessons and tests could help educate people a lot more than it currently does.

Whilst 3,000+ deaths a year is a shocking figure; given the volume and density of that traffic in this country what is that figure as a % of car journeys?

Before you can say we are all terrible drivers you first need to understand the figures and how they compare to other similar countries. Also how many of these deaths involved young drivers in their first two years of driving - both of my boys had very serious accidents within the first 3 months of passing their test - my daughter only accident was to take out a petrol pump!!?

Maybe what is required is everyone attend Cod-ed's school of motoring - he has never had to break unexpectedly in 30+ years of driving

so he claims anyway

Perhaps he just plans his journeys very well and knows where all the nicest service stations and cafés en route are.

Far from it. In fact he has often placed personal safety aside and nominated himself as pathfinder through some of the very worst weather the UK has ever seen; bravely clearing the way where others dare not venture. Miles of vulnerable and lesser drivers hugging tightly behind our noble wagoneer.

You teach to a standard, that standard isn't high enough.
The complete lack of compulsory motorway experience either pre or post test is frankly lethal.

If you're gonna have a pop, at least make even a cursory attempt at getting your facts right. It's only last month you were corrected on this matter in the M5 Fog thread

Waste of time, he struggles to differentiate between something that enables a vehicle to stop and something to do once that vehicle has stopped.

At least you got it...

You are aware that I never, ever said I hadn't ever had to brake heavily?

What I did say was that my Advanced HGV training taught me better roadcraft and to be more aware of road/other driver situations. In fact the last time I had to brake suddenly was when a motorcyclist crossed the carriageway in front of my car. If I hadn't slowed first because I saw him getting out of shape on the opposite side of the road, he'd most likely have ended up going through my windscreen. In fact according to that map:

"This incident took place on the A371 in South Somerset at 3.11pm on 10 May 2009. One moptorbike and one car (not mine) were involved. The rider of the motorbike, a man aged 31, died"

The car that killed him was the one following me and after the motorcyclist hed passed in front of my car, he hit the hedge and bounced back out into the road. The Escourt behind me ran over him. Neither vehicles were insured

Is that right? You mean where several people were speculating about the cause of the crash - one of which was the firework smoke theory. I certainly don't recall ever being "corrected". In fact your penultimate post on the thread is precisely that - speculation on a theory. What I do recall is you crying about how the police were gathering statements, evidence and carrying out forensic investigation as though you knew better.

You're a little over-sensitive today ain'tcha? You're actually an idol of mine and I use your brave example and psychic roadcraft as inspiration every time I pop down to Asda.

With your visionary skills I'd never have hit that postman in 2007. True story dat.

Totally agree. I'm not the best driver in the world, but the lack of awareness of how to drive on a motorway(I DID have a motorway lesson) is astonishing and frankly, frightening.

Bravo Sir. Most people would argue till they were blue in the face that they are better at driving than anyone, we've got a few on this thread who believe their training was better than anyone else's. It's refreshing to hear someone admit they are not Mr Perfect Driver.

Look numb-nuts, you were corrected on your assertion that I was some legendary pathfinder, following my post on driving in fog from hartshead moor services.

Shattered.



Can I please hear the story again?



And can I please hear the one about the bike that missed you and hit the car behind, but the nasty coroner reckoned something else....[size=75oh dammit, too late.[/size

Drivers obsess about motorway driving because it affects them & their perceived safety, when infact it accounts for a small proportion of deaths on the roads. Where we should be concentrating efforts is on stopping & banning dangerous drivers in urban areas. Something like a quarter of those killed annually are pedestrians, we are restricting children's independent mobility due to fear of urban traffic & our record of child & elderly pedestrian safety is worse than the Eurpoean average.

I don't think anyone is a perfect driver. Anyone who says they are is probably so arrogant about their driving that they're worse than most.

I know that this sort of comment is easily passed off as "old fogey" but until two years ago I was still driving 25-30k miles a year, since then its much less but its all inner-city which just makes things worse - I maintain that in recent years (say 10 years) the level of driver aggression on the roads has increased noticeably.

As most of my driving is now commuting and not driving to appointments any more I admit that I now drive much slower than I used to, speed cameras and three convictions (ok, not convictions, I dobbed myself in) have done that, but I'm constantly tail gated by other vehicles when driving at or very close to the speed limit who through either aggression or complete lack of knowledge are driving so close to my car that they wouldn't even have time to hit the brakes if I had to make an emergency stop.

The most common of those who follow so close at 30 or 40mph that you can't actually see their radiator grill in your rear view mirror are young women drivers, thats not to pick on them specifically but thats the result of my completely unscientific survey - I just think that they have no clue at all about road positioning and the theory of giving yourself plenty of reaction room, after all its your wallet thats going to suffer when you're in the boot of another car and you didn't even notice them braking.

Its simple education - I learned through experience when I passed my test in 1975 in cars that were far less safe than the ones we drive today, seatbelts weren't even compulsory then.

I feel much less safe on single-lane A-roads than I do on the motorway. Sure, there are thousands of idiots on motorways, but the three lanes and relative straightness of the roads makes it easier to anticipate and avoid their stupidity. On single-lane A-roads you see some absolutely crazy overtaking in incredibly unsafe situations and, if you were coming the opposite way, there'd quite often be little you could do to avoid it.

I agree that more should be done to educate drivers before giving them a license. I was lucky in that In my last job I spent a lot of time In HGV's as a passenger, and had drivers giving me lots of advice aswell as what I could see for myself on a daily basis. So when I did got on the motorway for the first time ( I had a HGV Driver with me who used to be an instructor) I understood the "laws" of the motorway and how to safely drive on them, So it shocks me when I think the majority of young people who have just passed their test are going out on the motorway for the first time without experienced people with them and no idea of what they are doing. Infact I see countless people driving on the motorway who arent always younger drivers sticking in the middle lane oblivious to how dangerous that can actually be.

Although as much as you can increase standards of driving instructing it still won't stop the d1cks who drive around cutting people up, over taking when they shouldn't be, under taking, speeding and all the rest of it. Better knowledge can stop some deaths, but there's a lot of cases where it is simply peoples attitudes and idiotic driving that causes "accidents" rather than them not knowing how to drive. Earlier this year 2 men where killed near me crossing a dual carriage way, a car in the outside lane slowed to let the 2 men across the road but the car behind decided to undertake the car and as he did the 2 men where killed. It wasn't a shock to anyone round here when it was reported that the driver was a young lad well known for screwing his modified escort around the area. It was an accident waiting to happen. There are too many drivers who just simply don't have any courtesy for other people using the road and will do anything to get where they are going 30 seconds earlier...and this is imo what causes so many accidents. I guess the police hands are tied tho, Theres only so many speed cameras they can put up and unless they are actually there to see people driving dangerously then people will continue to get away with it and will carry on driving that way.

I work with a client that has a global footprint-100000 staff. They have a traffic incident somewhere every 36 hours. A quite remarkable statistic given they are a minerals extraction company.
They have introduced a driving standard that you would think is unworkable
All vehicles less than 3 years old or x mile. All fitted with roll bars etc. High spec vehicles
5 star driving programme- Attendance at a variety of courses
Each vehicle is fitted with an in vehicle monitoring system. If you speed for more than 10 seconds a text is sent to a senior manger similarly if you break harshly or don’t take a break before 120 minutes- All incur disciplinary action!

London buses are being fitted with a traffic light system, they have lights on the dash were if you are driving safely and smoothly it stays green on the other hand if you drive to quick for the road or brake harshly and taken off quickly it goes red, it's all fed back to the garages and the drivers are re-educated as to how to change their driving style, the unions were non too impressed at first seeing it as another way to discip.ie drivers but were assured it was an educational tool rather than a discipline one. The union only came round when they decided to turn it in to a bonus scheme and a whole shift in 'the green' meant a cash bonus in every pay packet.