Are we perhaps, after all these years, on the verge of the Tories splitting over Europe? Can the PM, who seems to be a figure of ridicule in his party (and elsewhere) hold things together? What is his stance - one minute talking tough, the next saying there's no way an "in / out" referendum should be held? Are we approaching their SDP moment or will they hold it together?

Well we have Ted Heath to thank for taking us into the EEC in the first place and Margaret Thatcher for taking us into the Exchange Rate Mechanism so Cameron has big shoes to fill in terms of enhancing the power of Brussels over the UK.

I agree. So why all the ridiculous and tortuous posturing for the benefit of his party? It's the biggest issue in British politics and one that never has been and never will get discussed and dealt with properly.

Because almost all politicians from major parties agree the country would be better off in the EU, however a lot of the population have been mislead by parts of the media into thinking Brussels is trying to ban straight bananas, and give all terrorists/criminals/singlemothers/you get the idea, a big house to live in because its their human right.

Nothing to do with the enormous amount it costs the country nor the huge economic drag it exerts on us? Nothing to do with the fact that we are geographically a fringe area and like all fringe areas will become an impoverished irrelevance over time? Then again there are those misled by sections of the press and self-serving, mindless elements of the politcal class into thinking there is no viable alternative to membership.

I completely disagree that membership of the EU is a net drag on our economy. My point was that there is a huge disconnect between the opinions of the politicians (of all three major parties), and of the population. That is why there is a lot of posturing, and that is why I can't imagine the Europe issue getting solved anytime soon. All the parties feel like they need to offer a referendum in order to win votes, but they are all worried if they give the people a choice they will choose the 'wrong' option.

My point about the media was that like it or not, we are living in a country where most people decide how to vote on things like referenda, not based on an objective look at the facts and implications of their choice. But instead based on a quick glance at the options and which side has the catchiest slogan (slightly simplifying there but its not far from the truth).

I'm not a big fan of a lot of MP's, and there needs to be better systems in place to stop them basing their decisions on which will personally benefit themselves or their party. However I'd rather MP's make these sort of decisions than the public which on the whole is pretty unintelligent, very uneducated and is easily manipulated by a purely self-interested media.

Dally and his Daily Mail bible?



I agree issues like that are what we pay MP's to decide for us. Far too complex to let it be decided by bent banana sound bites in a referendum.

Most people don't even understand the European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU yet blame the EU for EHCR decisions they disagree with.

When you are starting from that basis you have not got a hope in hell of getting people voting intelligently.

The Tories need to decide if they are pro Europe or not as a party. If as DC says he is and the party decides it is then those Tory MP's who oppose EU membership need to leave it or be booted out. The same applies to the smaller number of Labour MP's who are also anti-EU.

DC won't go down that path though as they would all end up in UKIP and split the Tory vote at the next general election. DC thinks a referendum will be a vote winner despite the fact he hasn't even framed the question or is able to deliver what he says would be something that needed putting to the people (a renegotiated membership for the UK in the EU).

The anti-EU MP's are just as disingenuous in that you have to ask if they are so diametrically opposed to their leaders stated position that the UK is better off in the EU why are they still in the party? There is an obvious home for them in UKIP. Again I think it is self preservation in that they want to try and form a majority government next time and perhaps despite being a minority of Tory MP's seem to believe they can force the issue of a referendum based on a simple in/out question.

Bottom line is we have an uneducated and easily manipulated public and too much self interest displayed by DC and his MP's. God knows how we will come out of this one.

If we weren't already in the EU there might just be a case for staying out of it. But we are in it and the idea that we would be better off coming out is fanciful. Similarly the idea that we could substantially re-negotiate the terms of our membership for the better is highly implausible.

The French and Germans in particular would never allow the UK to have a beneficial trading relationship with the EU outside of the EU. We're not Norway. If we left the insitution, the EU would have a huge incentive to make sure that we suffered as a consequence. If the UK were to prosper oustide of the EU it would completely de-stabalise that institution, encourage other countries to do the same. They're just not going to allow that to happen. We would end up accepting 75% of EU laws, still making a significant financial contribution and having even less say.

How confused are some people going to be today?

The European Court of Human Rights finds against BA for discrimination against an employee who wanted to wear a cross.

Will the response be:

a) a victory for common sense and our Christian heritage!

b) how dare this Euro court over rule a British tribunal and court!

The European Court of Human Rights finds against three claimants who had claimed discrimination on the grounds of their Christian beliefs.

Will the response be:

a) dreadful decision from the fascist Euro court, persecuting genuine Christians;

b) excellent to see the Euro court does not over turn three UK decisions?

I can't remember where I saw it or who said it, but can you imagine the Scandinavian countries standing by, seeing us butcher our working right to well below the high level they have, just to undercut them?

Cameron talks of repatriation of powers but is careful not to say which ones.
Which of these powers are so harmful to be in the hands of the EU ... and why are the rest of the EU so happy with them if they are so harmful?

You will find it is mostly to do with employment legislation such as the working time directive.

What EU employment law does is protect the majority of people in this country from unscrupulous employers and the Tories would love to repeal all of it so people end up with no job security or employment rights whatsoever.

Those calling for exit won't mention that much at all though. They will play to nationalism, immigration and as Dally mentioned the cost of being a member of the club.

What most people don't realise is if we leave, the EU will NOT let us trade with them if we do not abide by their rules in exactly the same way Norway has to do so.

Indeed so, Cameron wants UK industry to have the economic advantage of sweating its labour.

Spot on.

I have to say, I really don't get how supposedly economically literate people could ever consider this 'good'.

Look at the current impact of a lack of confidence. People aren't spending and, however much we dislike the fact that our national economy is dependent on the service sector (including retail), in the short term at least, we need people to spend.

But if you have a continued drive to the bottom on wages, terms and conditions, rights etc, you will damage confidence and, indeed, you will remove – at least to a degree – consumers from a consumer economy. Which really should be a case of 'duhh' with half a brain.

Although the government want to boost exports. Taking demand out of the economy also helps the balance of payments - most consumer goods being imported.

taking demand out of the economy does nothing to boost said economy and with it jobs though does it?

Well its now becoming slightly clearer as the "Fresh Start Group" have four main demands for what they want:

• A complete repatriation of social and employment laws such as the working time directive which imposes a 48-hour working week. Britain has an opt-out from that aspect of the directive.

• A opt-out from all criminal justice measures.

• An "emergency brake" that would give Britain an effective veto over new financial services regulations which are currently decided by qualified majority voting (QMV).

• An end to the monthly plenary sessions of the European parliament held in Strasbourg.

The question has to be asked [iwhy[/i do they want the powers repatriated? The obvious answer is so they can repeal the legislation and for most people in this country that would be a bad thing.

If they framed a referendum question along the lines of "Do you support the abolition of the working time directive and other employment laws so your employer can work you to death then sack you at the drop of a hat?" I think the answer would be a resounding "no". However that is what this country could well be walking into as people vote "yes" because they prefer bent bananas.

Or, to be more accurate: because large numbers of people believe the myths about 'bent bananas'.

Myths? My banana definitely bends - to the left.

I was almost certain it would bend to the right.

That reads very much like a "we only want the bits we like" manifesto with no room for a compromise to get something. Why do they think the UK would get a veto when they basically want the UK to say stuff the EU? Nonsense.

Yes, they seem to want to be able to veto elements of the fiscal union whilst remaining outside of it.
I' m thinking this is because they are worried about the City (outside the fiscal union) losing trade to Frankfurt (inside the fiscal union)... but refusing to compromise will only accelerate that loss of trade.

Cameron is putting all of his faith into one belief - that the voters of the UK are stupid.

He's hoping that dangling the carrot of a future referendum on Europe will be sufficient to return the tories with a clear majority, it's a high risk strategy and one that gives an insight into the arrogance of the man and the party he leads.

It's extremely doubtful that we'll be allowed to cherry-pick the bits of the EU we want and leave the rest. In the remote chance that we were able to do that, what happens when the rest of the 27 decide that they'd like something similar?

Meanwhile, the uncertainty created will only harm investment in the UK or the expansion of UK companies into Europe. Why would any non-EU company choose to invest in the UK if they aren't certain that we'll still be a part of the EU in 10 years time? Similarly, why would any UK company invest in European expansion for the same reasons?

One thing is certain: any powers that may possibly be repatriated will only lead to a weakening of the rights and protections of UK citizens to the advantage of the privileged few

Actually it's more that he's confident that our hugely anti-EU media will do the job for him. You only have to look at this morning's pathetic coverage on BBC Breakfast - asking the head of Timpson's for his opinion FFS!

Unfortunately he's going to promise the "people" what they have been convinced they want, the vast majority that would vote "out" in a referendum on Europe are closed minded little Englanders that would do it just to give "johnny foreigner" a bloody nose. It explains why Cameron doesn't want Farage involved in TV debates, he doesn't want to split his own votes.

I'm increasingly convinced that none of them, Conservative,Lib Dem or Labour are actually any better than each other, which means in the next election I can probably not vote, unless we get a Brewsters Millions "none of the above" option (and assuming whichever civil servant that orders the printing doesn't list them first!)